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6 Nations Round 4 - England v Ireland

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 28 Feb 2022, 4:34 am

First topic message reminder :

England v Ireland

Twickers, London
Saturday 12th March 2022
Kick Off - 1645hrs

England team


Ireland team

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 13 Mar 2022, 3:49 pm

It just struck me this morn: The England scrum was extremely strong yesterday and Courtney Lawes was back in the second row. At the minimum, it shows Ewels really adds nothing overall. But also how valuable our captain is!

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 13 Mar 2022, 3:56 pm

The issue for England going to France next week is who comes in for Sinkler, Ewels, and Curry?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 13 Mar 2022, 4:00 pm

doctor_grey wrote:It just struck me this morn:  The England scrum was extremely strong yesterday and Courtney Lawes was back in the second row.  At the minimum, it shows Ewels really adds nothing overall.  But also how valuable our captain is!  
Good as he's been in an age. Keep him at lock. He should have nudged the ref to check that Firlong tackle though, happened right in front of him.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 13 Mar 2022, 4:01 pm

Vickery, Kay and Rees are the educated guesses.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 13 Mar 2022, 4:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Vickery, Kay and Rees are the educated guesses.

Ha,Ha,Ha, taking the pea again are wee.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 13 Mar 2022, 4:27 pm

Damn I thought it was my turn to have the pea.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 13 Mar 2022, 5:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:It just struck me this morn:  The England scrum was extremely strong yesterday and Courtney Lawes was back in the second row.  At the minimum, it shows Ewels really adds nothing overall.  But also how valuable our captain is!  
Good as he's been in an age. Keep him at lock. He should have nudged the ref to check that Firlong tackle though, happened right in front of him.
Not sure why no one reacted to the Furlong incident.  I missed it when it happened too.  But seems pretty clear when seen on replay.  

On a different subject, going back to some earlier comments, both The Guardian and The Telegraph in their player ratings gave Ewels a 2 rather than a zero.   Which is clearly bizarre.  Not that the ratings mean much outside of starting conversations, but I have always thought most rating points are about 2 points too high.  It almost seems to me that a 6 or 7 is an average score as they currently do it.  Or maybe I need a refresher in basic maths.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 13 Mar 2022, 6:49 pm

82 seconds of 80 minutes is 1.7% ish, so 2% of the time on the pitch in round digits. Only way I can get near a 2.
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Post by nathan Sun 13 Mar 2022, 6:52 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
nathan wrote:I agree with the red card and understand what they are trying to do, but I get frustrated when the refs and tmo miss others. As an example (and I'm sure there are some for Ireland too) just after the Ryan incident, itoje was clearly tackled by sexton using his shoulder. Should have been a red or yellow.

Whilst players need to improve their tackle height, the reffing team need to increase spotting them.

The Sexton shoulder tackle was far from clear cut from any video I have seen on the internet. Bit of a stretch to say it should definitively been anything really.

What is clear though is who the better 10 on the day was.

Ignore the looney comments but gives a good slow mo of the incident

https://youtu.be/EuDvHAizuXo

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Post by Collapse2005 Sun 13 Mar 2022, 7:01 pm

I already saw that idiotic video. You would need a telescope to see the point of contact for the Sexton tackle in that video. I have to say I do find the amount of moaning about referee decisions entertaining. The ref effectively kept England in that game with some of the scrum decisions. There was only one scrum that the English pack really drove the Irish pack backwards and they were pushing before the engagement. The rest were penalties for wheeling and both teams were at it.

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Post by nathan Sun 13 Mar 2022, 7:08 pm

I thought it was pretty clear there was no arms involved and it was shoulder to either chest, neck or head.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Sun 13 Mar 2022, 8:00 pm

Well, I can see why people may look for the positives - despite the score board showing a 17 point spanking at HQ. But no, this is the 2nd game of the series that some clown has helped to scupper England’s chances. It’s not as if catching the ball and tackling properly aren’t fundamentals of the game that elite pro athletes should have mastered.

‘Course it doesn’t help that those backs would struggle to score in a brothel. Wonder if OF at 10 would have done any worse?

Who’d have thought we’d be going to France looking for 4th – still, a possible improvement on last year, that’s a positive.
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Post by Collapse2005 Sun 13 Mar 2022, 8:11 pm

nathan wrote:I thought it was pretty clear there was no arms involved and it was shoulder to either chest, neck or head.

Yeah but there is a big difference of a tackle to the chest and one to the neck. Im sure we could find multiple head contacts during most games the problem for Ewels was his one was obvious. I do feel sorry for him though and dudnt want it to be red.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 14 Mar 2022, 12:01 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:‘Course it doesn’t help that those backs would struggle to score in a brothel. Wonder if OF at 10 would have done any worse?
No, I don't think OF could score in a brothel either.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 14 Mar 2022, 4:16 am

Collapse2005 wrote:I already saw that idiotic video. You would need a telescope to see the point of contact for the Sexton tackle in that video. I have to say I do find the amount of moaning about referee decisions entertaining. The ref effectively kept England in that game with some of the scrum decisions. There was only one scrum that the English pack really drove the Irish pack backwards and they were pushing before the engagement. The rest were penalties for wheeling and both teams were at it.

Would that one be when Furlong was walking backwards.....or when he was collapsing.....or when he had his head shoved up his rear end? There was one point (after yet another scrum penalty) were I honestly thought Furlong was crying. He just looked like he wanted to be anywhere else rather than getting pummeled over and over again.

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 14 Mar 2022, 7:06 am

England got some measured respect from pundits straight after the match. Some of that has been walked back over the last couple of days, with more focus on what is still missing from our game.

This week, BBC rugby podcast has Chris Jones and Ugo Monye joined by Sam Warburton and Danny Cipriani. Ugo suggested going down to 14 might have made things simpler for the England players, as far as putting in a shift, and always getting back up.

Cipriani agreed, saying that worked in defence. However, he thought the players looked less clear about what they were trying to do in attack. While Quins players know what positions to take up to give Marcus Smith options, Cipriani didn't have the impression that Smith has the same kind of picture for England. He described attack as being almost another kind of set piece, where players should know what the overall system needs them to do at any given time.

There was also some push back on the way Jones talks about his side being inexperienced. Only Steward at 21 is "young". Randall and Smith have relatively few caps but there are 23/24 year olds in other international sides with a lot more, so that has been his choice. England may be less about lack of experience, and more about clarity of purpose.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 7:48 am

Passed me by at the time but highlight of Saturday has to be 'Jarvo' getting flattened by security.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 8:36 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I already saw that idiotic video. You would need a telescope to see the point of contact for the Sexton tackle in that video. I have to say I do find the amount of moaning about referee decisions entertaining. The ref effectively kept England in that game with some of the scrum decisions. There was only one scrum that the English pack really drove the Irish pack backwards and they were pushing before the engagement. The rest were penalties for wheeling and both teams were at it.

Would that one be when Furlong was walking backwards.....or when he was collapsing.....or when he had his head shoved up his rear end? There was one point (after yet another scrum penalty) were I honestly thought Furlong was crying. He just looked like he wanted to be anywhere else rather than getting pummeled over and over again.

Like I said some of the decisions were fair enough some weren’t though. I honestly doubt the Ireland camp are that worried about how the scrum went. They will just get some clarity on the decisions and move on. In my view they have quite a bit less to worry about than the England camp despite celebrating a 17 point loss like they won the six nations.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Mon 14 Mar 2022, 8:41 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 8:38 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Passed me by at the time but highlight of Saturday has to be 'Jarvo' getting flattened by security.

Good to hear. Really good tackle technique.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 8:44 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I already saw that idiotic video. You would need a telescope to see the point of contact for the Sexton tackle in that video. I have to say I do find the amount of moaning about referee decisions entertaining. The ref effectively kept England in that game with some of the scrum decisions. There was only one scrum that the English pack really drove the Irish pack backwards and they were pushing before the engagement. The rest were penalties for wheeling and both teams were at it.

Would that one be when Furlong was walking backwards.....or when he was collapsing.....or when he had his head shoved up his rear end? There was one point (after yet another scrum penalty) were I honestly thought Furlong was crying. He just looked like he wanted to be anywhere else rather than getting pummeled over and over again.

Like I said some of the decisions were fair enough some weren’t though. I honestly doubt the Ireland camp are that worried about how the scrum went. They will just get some clarity on the decisions and move on. In my view they have quite a bit less to worry about than the England camp despite celebrating a 17 point loss like they won the six nations.

This is why I bang on about context. No one would be sitting here loving a 17 point loss under normal circumstances. We played the game with 14 men though and were well in the game into the last 15 minutes. Ireland probably won't be concerned re the scrum too much. As it is it's one game against a very good England pack. Not sure Farrell will be particularly pleased as to how Ireland were outplayed for much of the game though given the man advantage. In fact we all know Farrell wants to be the best, it's a certainty he'll want you to raise your game vs Scotland who will be wanting to end the tournament on a win too.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 8:53 am

I don’t think Ireland really were outplayed in many ways bar the scrum really though. Take that away and what’s left? Lineouts Ireland were arguably marginally better, tactical kicking better (two 50/22s to nil), more off loads, more line breaks, less missed tackles, more possession, more territory. Sure they forced a lot and made plenty of mistakes and silly pens too but had the mental fortitude to stick with it and get over the line in the end.

Ireland got a red card last year v Wales in Cardiff and still scored tries and came closer to winning or the time they beat SA with 14 men in SA. If you ask me England lacked a bit of ambition with some of their decisions.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 14 Mar 2022, 9:03 am

Ireland will be worried, I think you're kidding yourself if you think they won't be.

Outplayed by 14 men for 60mins.....scrum decimated by 7 forwards......lost the kicking contest.....15 pens conceded.

A few tries when England were on their last legs papers over a lot of cracks. Farrell is desperate for the England job, I'm not sure this has done him many favours.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 9:07 am

Collapse2005 wrote:I don’t think Ireland really were outplayed in many ways bar the scrum really though. Take that away and what’s left? Lineouts Ireland were arguably marginally better, tactical kicking better (two 50/22s to nil), more off loads, more line breaks, less missed tackles, more possession, more territory. Sure they forced a lot and made plenty of mistakes and silly pens too but had the mental fortitude to stick with it and get over the line in the end.

Ireland got a red card last year v Wales in Cardiff and still scored tries and came closer to winning or the time they beat SA with 14 men in SA. If you ask me England lacked a bit of ambition with some of their decisions.

I'll take a lack of ambition and outplaying the Irish with 14 men tbf.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 14 Mar 2022, 9:19 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I already saw that idiotic video. You would need a telescope to see the point of contact for the Sexton tackle in that video. I have to say I do find the amount of moaning about referee decisions entertaining. The ref effectively kept England in that game with some of the scrum decisions. There was only one scrum that the English pack really drove the Irish pack backwards and they were pushing before the engagement. The rest were penalties for wheeling and both teams were at it.

Would that one be when Furlong was walking backwards.....or when he was collapsing.....or when he had his head shoved up his rear end? There was one point (after yet another scrum penalty) were I honestly thought Furlong was crying. He just looked like he wanted to be anywhere else rather than getting pummeled over and over again.

After the first scrum which was penalty to Ireland - Genge was immense and had Furlong in endless problems.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 9:21 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ireland will be worried, I think you're kidding yourself if you think they won't be.

Outplayed by 14 men for 60mins.....scrum decimated by 7 forwards......lost the kicking contest.....15 pens conceded.

A few tries when England were on their last legs papers over a lot of cracks. Farrell is desperate for the England job, I'm not sure this has done him many favours.


Penalties conceded yes, some of them were definitely their own fault.
Scrum to a point but not as much as Raynal viewed it.
Kicking contest no. Our back 3 dealt with pretty much everything superbly and our tactical kicking was better than Englands when we used it. Two 50/22 vs Englands 0. For the most part England just kicked their own ball away.

I think you are clinging on to the outplayed idea a bit much really. There were quite a number of areas an under performing Ireland looked better than or on par with England.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 9:29 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I don’t think Ireland really were outplayed in many ways bar the scrum really though. Take that away and what’s left? Lineouts Ireland were arguably marginally better, tactical kicking better (two 50/22s to nil), more off loads, more line breaks, less missed tackles, more possession, more territory. Sure they forced a lot and made plenty of mistakes and silly pens too but had the mental fortitude to stick with it and get over the line in the end.

Ireland got a red card last year v Wales in Cardiff and still scored tries and came closer to winning or the time they beat SA with 14 men in SA. If you ask me England lacked a bit of ambition with some of their decisions.

I'll take a lack of ambition and outplaying the Irish with 14 men tbf.

Would you really though. With some of your penalties you had tje opportunity to kick down the line and use Itoje and the maul to try to get over the line. I think that would have been a better option for England.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 9:32 am

lostinwales wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I already saw that idiotic video. You would need a telescope to see the point of contact for the Sexton tackle in that video. I have to say I do find the amount of moaning about referee decisions entertaining. The ref effectively kept England in that game with some of the scrum decisions. There was only one scrum that the English pack really drove the Irish pack backwards and they were pushing before the engagement. The rest were penalties for wheeling and both teams were at it.

Would that one be when Furlong was walking backwards.....or when he was collapsing.....or when he had his head shoved up his rear end? There was one point (after yet another scrum penalty) were I honestly thought Furlong was crying. He just looked like he wanted to be anywhere else rather than getting pummeled over and over again.

After the first scrum which was penalty to Ireland - Genge was immense and had Furlong in endless problems.

I suspect when the dust settles and the scrums are all analysed you might find Genge wasnt quite as dominant as initially thought. Having said that I dont have any issue with how it panned out and its also a good learning excercise for the Ireland pack.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 9:36 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I don’t think Ireland really were outplayed in many ways bar the scrum really though. Take that away and what’s left? Lineouts Ireland were arguably marginally better, tactical kicking better (two 50/22s to nil), more off loads, more line breaks, less missed tackles, more possession, more territory. Sure they forced a lot and made plenty of mistakes and silly pens too but had the mental fortitude to stick with it and get over the line in the end.

Ireland got a red card last year v Wales in Cardiff and still scored tries and came closer to winning or the time they beat SA with 14 men in SA. If you ask me England lacked a bit of ambition with some of their decisions.

I'll take a lack of ambition and outplaying the Irish with 14 men tbf.

Would you really though. With some of your penalties you had tje opportunity to kick down the line and use Itoje and the maul to try to get over the line. I think that would have been a better option for England.

Yeah I'd take it, as we were a man down. We weren't going to win from min 3 onwards yet, we were the better team. You take the huge positive and move on.

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Post by mountain man Mon 14 Mar 2022, 9:44 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I already saw that idiotic video. You would need a telescope to see the point of contact for the Sexton tackle in that video. I have to say I do find the amount of moaning about referee decisions entertaining. The ref effectively kept England in that game with some of the scrum decisions. There was only one scrum that the English pack really drove the Irish pack backwards and they were pushing before the engagement. The rest were penalties for wheeling and both teams were at it.

Would that one be when Furlong was walking backwards.....or when he was collapsing.....or when he had his head shoved up his rear end? There was one point (after yet another scrum penalty) were I honestly thought Furlong was crying. He just looked like he wanted to be anywhere else rather than getting pummeled over and over again.

After the first scrum which was penalty to Ireland - Genge was immense and had Furlong in endless problems.

I suspect when the dust settles and the scrums are all analysed you might find Genge wasnt quite as dominant as initially thought. Having said that I dont have any issue with how it panned out and its also a good learning excercise for the Ireland pack.

Yep. Scrums usually a lottery and guesswork by ref. Think most were surprised at number of scrum pens against Ireland. That said, with so many given a yellow card maybe should have be given or at least a warning. Just more inconsistency.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 9:45 am

A warning was given on the scrums.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 9:45 am

Fair enough and for sure there are positives for England and credit to them for rallying. Of course Ill be supporting England v France but I feel they will be too strong.

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Post by Recwatcher16 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 10:14 am

The England forward effort was clearly top marks. It doesn't seem to have been commented on much but not only a man down but no openside flanker for a significant period of the game leaving two 8's and a winger in the back row.
I thought England might go after the Irish scrum but did not anticpate Genge and Sinkler providing the pressure rather than Marler and Stuart. Ireland were pretty lucky to avoid a yellow card.

Concerns about England's backline are also clearly still there with no discernable game plan, a bit like Ireland 12 months ago when there were calls in the media to sack Mike Catt. If Ireland were missing Sexton and the three kiwis, their backline might have been lacking 'cohesion' too.
I thought Ireland's most improved player was Bundee Aki who just seems to gel the backline, despite not being the quickest, can't kick and with an average pass but England were not finding a way through his defence.
Quite a few videos flying around this morning on Furlongs clothesline hit on Slade but doubtful any ref would go for another red in a single match.

The England team for Paris and the selection in the forwards with Ewels, Curry and Sinkler missing should be interesting for next week.

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Post by Pete330v2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 10:23 am

The red card wasn't even remotely harsh. It was a borderline late tackle with no attempt to reduce his height. He was clearly trying to "lay down a marker" early on and got it badly wrong. As a result of his recklessness I wouldn't be surprised if Ryan ends up missing more games than Ewels does.
On the scrums, Genge was clearly stepping out and then driving at an angle, especially in the first half. Nigel Owens has looked at the scrums and concluded that England were equally at fault and there should have been resets or some of the pens should have gone to Ireland. However, England boxed clever and played Raynal better than Ireland, they also coped with the disruption in their tight 5 much better than Ireland did with theirs (remember that 2 players were forced off). Sheehan is a superb carrier and a serious prospect but I think his inexperience in the position was shown up a good bit and Old Father Time has caught up with Cian Healy. I'd start with Kilcoyne and Herring next Saturday, how you win a match without an operating scrum is a mystery to me so it'll need to operate against the Scots or we can kiss the Triple Crown goodbye. Also, and it's difficult as an Ulster fan to say this, Henderson really needs to up his game significantly, 'must try harder'.

P.S. Before the match, during the anthems I pointed out that the 2 players I'd most want to steal from England would be Itoje and Genge. After the match I'm still of the same opinion.


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Post by carpet baboon Mon 14 Mar 2022, 10:24 am

Furlong didn't clothesline Slade. Slade ran and fell into furlong, who had his arm out ready to catch the ball.


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Post by Recwatcher16 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 10:31 am

I never said Furlong had any intent but pretty clear where his outstretched arm hit Slade. However Slade got back on his feet which allowed the ref to ignore it.
It would have probably been harsh but that's not the point when players get hit from the neck up.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 10:40 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:The England forward effort was clearly top marks. It doesn't seem to have been commented on much but not only a man down but no openside flanker for a significant period of the game leaving two 8's and a winger in the back row.
I thought England might go after the Irish scrum but did not anticpate Genge and Sinkler  providing the pressure rather than Marler and Stuart.  Ireland were pretty lucky to avoid a yellow card.

Concerns about England's backline are also clearly still there with no discernable game plan, a bit like Ireland 12 months ago when there were calls in the media to sack Mike Catt. If Ireland were missing Sexton and the three kiwis, their backline might have been lacking 'cohesion' too.
I thought Ireland's most improved player was Bundee Aki who just seems to gel the backline, despite not being the quickest, can't kick and with an average pass but England were not finding a way through his defence.
Quite a few videos flying around this morning on Furlongs clothesline hit on Slade but doubtful any ref would go for another red in a single match.

The England team for Paris and the selection in the forwards with Ewels, Curry and Sinkler missing should be interesting for next week.

I think the might have been the first time the "three Kiwis" have all played in the same tests and I think you might agree we looked more cohesive when Murray and Henshaw replaced two of them. We have pretty decent depth in our backs.

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Post by Big Mon 14 Mar 2022, 10:55 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:
Quite a few videos flying around this morning on Furlongs clothesline hit on Slade but doubtful any ref would go for another red in a single match.

To be honest, I think many a ref would be more willing to give a second red card to 'balance things out', provided it was to the other team of course... back in the days that brawls were a regular occurrence, refs generally preferred to send off one player each when they felt a red was necessary even when there was really one primary antagonist.

For myself I don't think the Furlong case was the same in that Slade had dipped a lot to try and get the intercept and Furlong was caught a little off guard and was low, but by current interpretation of rules this is a penalty at least for me and maybe a yellow (would need better video of it to check though). More concerning was that I didn't notice Slade go off for an HIA after, did I miss that or did it actually not happen?

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Post by MichaelT Mon 14 Mar 2022, 11:07 am

Collapse2005 wrote: I think the might have been the first time the "three Kiwis" have all  played in the same tests and I think you might agree we looked more cohesive when Murray and Henshaw replaced two of them. We have pretty decent depth in our backs.

They all started the last time Ireland were at Twickenham.

I thought Ringrose was fairly anonymous on Saturday, but being able to play 2 of Aki, Ringrose or Henshaw and having one of them on the bench is a great position to be in.

Also, didn't Gibson-Park get man of the match?

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 11:08 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:I never said Furlong had any intent but pretty clear where his outstretched arm hit Slade. However Slade got back on his feet which allowed the ref to ignore it.
It would have probably been harsh but that's not the point when players get hit from the neck up.

Did you want Furlong to get sent off for that? I think like it or not refs do take into consideration injuries and how hurt a player is. Not sure Ryan knew what planet he was on after his injury. Personally I didnt want to see a red at all, its frustrating but we did also lose a player and he will probably also miss the Scotland game.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 11:10 am

MichaelT wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote: I think the might have been the first time the "three Kiwis" have all  played in the same tests and I think you might agree we looked more cohesive when Murray and Henshaw replaced two of them. We have pretty decent depth in our backs.

They all started the last time Ireland were at Twickenham.

I thought Ringrose was fairly anonymous on Saturday, but being able to play 2 of Aki, Ringrose or Henshaw and having one of them on the bench is a great position to be in.

Also, didn't Gibson-Park get man of the match?

He sure did and played a stormer. I stand corrected then however I suspect they havent all started that many together as Henshaw and Aki rotate a fair bit as do Lowe and Hansen and Stockdale potentially too. Chris Farrell and Hume are also decent centre cover.

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Post by MichaelT Mon 14 Mar 2022, 11:16 am

Big wrote:For myself I don't think the Furlong case was the same in that Slade had dipped a lot to try and get the intercept and Furlong was caught a little off guard and was low, but by current interpretation of rules this is a penalty at least for me and maybe a yellow (would need better video of it to check though).  More concerning was that I didn't notice Slade go off for an HIA after, did I miss that or did it actually not happen?  

Yeah should have been a yellow at least - no tackle attempt, swinging arm and high on the body. Its the inconsistency of it. Henderson not being yellow carded on his second or third penalty for playing the ball on the ground when Liam Williams was yellow carded for that two weeks ago. No yellow card for 6 scrum penalties. England got a yellow card last year v Scotland for 5 penalties in the first half alone.

That all being said though, its all self-inflicted by England and they have deserved to lose when they've lost.


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Post by dummy_half Mon 14 Mar 2022, 11:18 am

Definitely wasn't England's day:
Ewels red for clumsy / careless rather than malicious play - however, can't accuse refs of a lack of consistency on that one, as such head to head contacts have been red carded for the last few years. It's reasonable to question whether the rule and sanction is justified for this type of accidental collision as opposed to a full on high tackle, but that's the rules at the moment.

Lost Curry to a leg injury and Sinkler to a bash on the head, with Ireland taking advantage of Sinkler being slow to his feet in taking a quick tap and scoring.
Dombrandt only fit enough to give us about 40 minutes.

SUperb spirit, but just not the gas to see it out int he last 10.

Forwards, bar Ewels, ranged from good to superb, Nowell and Marchant excellent. Several others decent to good

Was Malins on the pitch? Given the huge amount of work Nowell got through, the contrast was notable.

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Post by Recwatcher16 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 11:20 am

My point was Ireland were not missing key players. I will list Ringrose, Conway and Keenan with Sexton if that is more acceptable. If you think stating kiwis is some sort of dig, then I will list them out next time, if I can be bothered.

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Post by MichaelT Mon 14 Mar 2022, 11:29 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
MichaelT wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote: I think the might have been the first time the "three Kiwis" have all  played in the same tests and I think you might agree we looked more cohesive when Murray and Henshaw replaced two of them. We have pretty decent depth in our backs.

They all started the last time Ireland were at Twickenham.

I thought Ringrose was fairly anonymous on Saturday, but being able to play 2 of Aki, Ringrose or Henshaw and having one of them on the bench is a great position to be in.

Also, didn't Gibson-Park get man of the match?

He sure did and played a stormer. I stand corrected then however I suspect they havent all started that many together as Henshaw and Aki rotate a fair bit as do Lowe and Hansen and Stockdale potentially too. Chris Farrell and Hume are also decent centre cover.

Not sure bringing Hansen into the discussion is that good an idea on foreign born players, he is Australian born and bred and developed. irrespective of being Irish qualified. Stockdale also hasnt played for Ireland for some time so no rotation involved there.

You could say based on those players are Ireland having problems developing their own backs?

A backline of Murray, Sexton, Earls, Henshaw, Ringrose, Conway, Keenan is hardly youthful. Hume and Baloucoune are inexperienced, but still older than Radwan/ Steward for England who have more caps. Larmour seems to be on his third second season syndrome.

I doubt Ireland would start a test v England with Casey and Healy like England do with Randall and Smith.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 11:35 am

No not concerned at all with Irelands depth in the backs apart from at out half. I assume you are quite concerned with Englands? The backs have been a major weakness.

Stockdale will definitely be back at some stage.

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Post by MichaelT Mon 14 Mar 2022, 11:47 am

Collapse2005 wrote:No not concerned at all with Irelands depth in the backs apart from at out half. I assume you are quite concerned with Englands? The backs have been a major weakness.

Stockdale will definitely be back at some stage.

Yep, concerned but having Watson and May available would give a much different outcome.

Not to mention Farrell and of course Tuilagi.

England missing 7 or 8 first choice players not helping at all.

But it would be nice to see some tries all the same

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 11:48 am

Collapse2005 wrote:No not concerned at all with Irelands depth in the backs apart from at out half. I assume you are quite concerned with Englands? The backs have been a major weakness.

Stockdale will definitely be back at some stage.

I don't think most of us have too many concerns about people available to play in the backs, just a strong disagreement of the ones chosen.

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 11:54 am

Irelands under 20s look likely to win the six nations with a grand slam so the system of bringing Irish talent through is definitely working. The under 20s have been very strong in the last few years.

Both the senior side and the under 20s have scored 20 tries in 4 games so no issues creating tries either.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Mon 14 Mar 2022, 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Irish Londoner Mon 14 Mar 2022, 12:01 pm

MichaelT wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:No not concerned at all with Irelands depth in the backs apart from at out half. I assume you are quite concerned with Englands? The backs have been a major weakness.

Stockdale will definitely be back at some stage.

Yep, concerned but having Watson and May available would give a much different outcome.

Not to mention Farrell and of course Tuilagi.

England missing 7 or 8 first choice players not helping at all.

But it would be nice to see some tries all the same

Tuilagi, seems to be one of those players that gets better the longer he isn't actually playing. Shouldn't England be looking for a Plan B now, or at least Jones should accept that Plan A doesn't involve Manu and that he should be the (when fit) Plan B option?

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Post by mountain man Mon 14 Mar 2022, 12:09 pm

Manu time up. I'd absolutely love him to be back fully fit and on form. But he's not and going on last few years won't be again.

Getting May and Watson back be great as and when fit but will they be players of a couple years ago?

Trouble is Jones seems incredibly reluctant to drop likes of Youngs, Daly, Ewels, Malins. None of those have performed this 6N to a standard worthy of an England place. Slade is the golden boy but is he really cutting it?
Lack of tries and lack of even looking like scoring tries is concern.

Not enough genuine out and out pace in backline.

Pretty sure we've said all this before and no doubt will again....

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