World Cup losers Playoff 2023 - The unwanted game - England v Argentina

by Geordie Wed 25 Oct 2023, 12:58 pm

England Team:

15 M Smith
14 F Steward
13 J Marchant,
12 M Tuilagi
11 H Arundell;
10 O Farrell (c),
9 B Youngs;

1 E Genge (vc),
2 T Dan,
3 W Stuart,
4 M Itoje,
5 O Chessum,
6 T Curry,
7 S Underhill,
8 B Earl.

Replacements: J George, B Rodd, D Cole, D Ribbans, L Ludlam, D Care, G Ford (vc), O Lawrence.

by dummy_half Wed 25 Oct 2023, 1:20 pm

Don't mind that selection for a game that no-one really cares about. A mix of starters and guys getting a 'thanks for being here' appearance - looks like we are taking the game reasonably seriously, and perhaps with a bit more ambition to play some attacking rugby than was the case in the earlier competitive games. In the pack, I'd say Genge and Dan are the more open field attacking options than those who have started before (obviously, with a drop-off in set piece level), and obviously Smith and Arundell in the back 3 offer a lot more ball in hand than May and Daly.

by Geordie Wed 25 Oct 2023, 1:28 pm

No one cares but how does it affect the seedings for the next WC or is it irrelevant.

The side is not bad actually...assuming Steward and Smith will just rotate wing and fb as an when the plays / defence require...

by lostinwales Wed 25 Oct 2023, 1:32 pm

Just have to look at it as a chance to experiment and say goodbye to a few old stalwarts. We desperately need options at hooker so starting Dan makes a lot of sense

by mikey_dragon Wed 25 Oct 2023, 1:43 pm

Isn't that the back-row everyone wanted?

by lostinwales Wed 25 Oct 2023, 1:58 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Isn't that the back-row everyone wanted?

Can't remember anyone saying that. Very dynamic if a bit lightweight.

by Geordie Wed 25 Oct 2023, 2:01 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Isn't that the back-row everyone wanted?

Of course not...it doesnt have Ted Hill in.... Rolling Eyes

by Mr Bounce Wed 25 Oct 2023, 2:19 pm

Superfast back row. Coupled with Ben Youngs.

Bizarre.

by Poorfour Wed 25 Oct 2023, 2:38 pm

Geordie wrote:No one cares but how does it affect the seedings for the next WC or is it irrelevant.

The side is not bad actually...assuming Steward and Smith will just rotate wing and fb as an when the plays / defence require...

It's relevant only in that the winner gets ranking points (which are doubled for RWC matches)

by mountain man Wed 25 Oct 2023, 2:46 pm

It's an interesting selection, not sure Itoje needs to play as he's surely due a rest. I'd have like to have seen Lawrence start in place of Manu.
Ludlum isn't injured then which begs question why he was omitted for Billy in SF.

by hugehandoff Wed 25 Oct 2023, 4:27 pm

Lawrence and Vickery deserve starts

by Old Man Wed 25 Oct 2023, 6:29 pm

Sorry, but I love third place play off matches, it is a test match, usually between two strong teams.

Is it also not true that the third placed teams automatically qualify for the next world cup?

Plus if ranking points are your flavour, you get double points for the match.

by doctor_grey Wed 25 Oct 2023, 6:43 pm

mountain man wrote:It's an interesting selection, not sure Itoje needs to play as he's surely due a rest. I'd have like to have seen Lawrence start in place of Manu.
Ludlum isn't injured then which begs question why he was omitted for Billy in SF.

Because there is something wrong with Borthwick. Seriously. He is not right.

And, worse he doesn't condescend to actually talk to the fans. This is the one game, a truly meaningless game (except for some match cred which will add barely a fraction to the discussion in 3 years) when players should be able to let loose a bit. And yet, we keep that Farrell in the 10 spot. If he is not retiring why play him? Same for George who clearly played too much Rugby. And Itoje. On the other hand, Ludlum has been very good this year and all Borthwick can think of is to put him on the bench in a meaningless game?

Frankly. this is the one game where it was almost impossible for Borthwick to mess up selection. Yet, he found a way. Welcome to the next four years. Andy Robinson, part deux, just more so.

by carpet baboon Wed 25 Oct 2023, 7:51 pm

hugehandoff wrote:Lawrence and Vickery deserve starts

I hope Vickery stays on for the next world cup. He's the one player from England I wish was Irish

by **Rugby Fan** Thu 26 Oct 2023, 5:14 am

Old Man wrote:Sorry, but I love third place play off matches, it is a test match, usually between two strong teams.

Is it also not true that the third placed teams automatically qualify for the next world cup?

Plus if ranking points are your flavour, you get double points for the match.

The only 3rd place play-off I remember is England vs France in 1995, which France won. It was a significant result, because England had registered a run of 8 straight victories over France. We were still out of sorts at being Lomu-d in the semi-final and went down tamely. With the hoodoo broken, France beat us three times in succession, denying us a 1996 Grand Slam, and winning back-to-back slams in 1997 and 1998. Without that 3rd place play-off loss, England might still have had the wood on France, and squeezed out another Slam or two ourselves.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 26 Oct 2023, 5:41 am

They're odd games for me and more down to where psychologically the players and coaches are than anything else. Strangley more than any other game there's nothing really riding on it and I'm personally much more likely to remember the knock out stages of any wc than who finished 3rd. Given that and what's gone before I'm not really sure what to expect. Will they all raise their game to salute Youngs? Will Borthwick release the handbrake and allow the players to play more freely and if he does why? Maybe the likes of Arundell manage to make some eye catching contribution to offer some hope for the Italy game. I'm not excited for the match but such is watching this side.

by mountain man Thu 26 Oct 2023, 8:42 am

I don't think we'll learn anything at all in regards who might put hand up for post RWC, the 23 smacks of Borthwick giving squad players a game. Which is understandable.

It's a game both teams will want to win for sure but ultimately not game they really wanted to play so maybe see some more running rugby.

For those interested England Red Roses play Canada 0700 tomorow morning.

by Taylorman Fri 27 Oct 2023, 1:44 am

They should drop this game from the programme. No one likes playing it bar the odd underdog and players just wanna get home to family.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 27 Oct 2023, 2:27 am

Taylorman wrote:They should drop this game from the programme. No one likes playing it bar the odd underdog and players just wanna get home to family.

Telegraph interviewed some English players from 1995, and they all agreed that it was the flattest they had ever felt during a match, and defeat to France, after a long unbeaten run, was a key advantage to lose in such a meaningless match.

On the other hand, it sounds like they had a great time with the French players after the game, and got rid of a lot of accumulated bad blood.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/10/26/england-bust-up-1995-rugby-world-cup-third-place-play-off/

Martin Johnson
The only upside, actually, was that we had a very good couple of days after the loss. We had to stay until the final and attend the dinner after it, so we were just hanging around in South Africa. We had a good night out with the French boys, which we never normally did. It was that big early-90s rivalry. Fiery games – a bit of a cold war between the two. That night, we ended up in the same bar as them in Pretoria and we had a great time.‌

Dean Richards
I can remember going back to the same hotel and France’s bus pulling alongside ours on the motorway. Both sides, on the bus, are pretending to row theirs quicker. There were 40 people rowing in unison, as the buses were alongside each other on the motorway. It sounds daft but it was hilarious.‌

Johnson
Yes, I remember that! It might have been coming back from the bus on the dinner after the final? They were alongside us and sort of went past us on the road. They all started to pretend they were rowing past us – and we followed.‌

Jason Leonard
The night out was tremendous; for the first time in many years we were together. And I don’t think the match was mentioned once. It was a case of catching up, breaking down a load of barriers. We were all dressed down in jeans and T-shirts and the stylish French came out in their number ones. We looked like a mess but they were tip-top. The camaraderie afterwards was what rugby is all about.‌

Martin Bayfield
That night we had an incredible time; drinking and partying with the French. We had the dinner after the final and, if you think the third-place play-off is crap, holding an event where you invite two losing teams, two winning teams – where only one side is actually happy to be there. . . and you had South Africa’s rugby president, Louis Luyt, on the stage, saying ‘there were no true world champions in the 1987 and 1991 World Cups because South Africa were not there’. Mike Brewer [former New Zealand back-rower] wanted to storm the stage and punch Louis’ lights out – and was restrained by his team-mates.

At the back of the room are the English and the French, howling with laughter, shouting: ‘More, more!’ Possibly the worst speech of all time; funny, in a way. The English and the French were almost like Statler and Waldorf, the two old guys in the Muppets, sitting in the box laughing at what was going on beneath them. They couldn’t quite believe it.

I also sensed that Brian Moore couldn’t quite believe that we were getting on with the French. I’m not sure he ever accepted that.‌

Johnson
There was a warming of relations between us and the French. Otherwise, it was all crap.

by doctor_grey Fri 27 Oct 2023, 4:18 am

It's an odd thing, this 3rd place game, is an obvious holdover from the amateur days. That said, one of my favourite games I have seen live was the 3rd place game between France and Argentina in 2007 (34-10 to Arg). But as our players are playing far too many games (you might have seen me write this once or twice previously) it really has to go.

In this game, why not pair Youngs, who has earned the respect for a farewell like this, with Ford, a former clubmate? Why play Itoje? George? Even Curry (for myriad of reasons). Happy to see Underhill and maybe Earl, England's player of the tournament. But no Ludlum or Ribbans in the starting lineup? Even Rodd. What's the worst thing that can happen? Who the eff cares, let the players play and have fun. It is still a game and supposed to be fun. Borthwick does not get that either.

Textbook case of screwing the pooch that can't be screwed.....

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Oct 2023, 6:59 am

It's a game with nothing on it doc. For every why not play so and so there's a reason to play another. It's hard to say what motivations each player has shown during the week or how they reacted to the defeat against SA. Who knows how the coaches are preparing for this. Perhaps the staff don't care and let them go out Barbarians style rather than kick everything but what does that say re entertainment. As Wigglesworth says winning is the entertainment not how you play (paraphrased).

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 27 Oct 2023, 9:09 am

If Arundell, gets a hat-trick, he'll match the record for the most tries in a single World Cup. Lomu (1999), Habana (2007) and Savea (2015) all scored 8.

Not only is it a long-shot, it might also be a short-lived record. Will Jordan has scored 8 tries so far, and may well set a new mark if he scores in the final.

by Geordie Fri 27 Oct 2023, 9:23 am

Rugby Fan wrote:If Arundell, gets a hat-trick, he'll match the record for the most tries in a single World Cup. Lomu (1999), Habana (2007) and Savea (2015) all scored 8.

Not only is it a long-shot, it might also be a short-lived record. Will Jordan has scored 8 tries so far, and may well set a new mark if he scores in the final.

In less games i bet...

by mountain man Fri 27 Oct 2023, 9:32 am

Contrary to some I'm actually looking forward to match tonight, game probably be more benefit to coaches than players but I'm keen to see how England go.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Oct 2023, 9:36 am

in the hope that england play as they have been?loads of kicking?or the hope that they change their style? My main thing is will we see Youngs throw the ball into touch looking to pass to a winger one last time.

by mountain man Fri 27 Oct 2023, 9:49 am

I enjoy watching England play rugby, usually. I think given backline picked, Youngs excepted maybe, there is potential there for some adventure.

If you really think I'm looking forward to watching same old tactics of loads of kicking then you are mistaken. I'm not sure England will change style drastically but at least with players selected and given less resting on result then there is definite possibilty of some decent rugby.

I do wonder why you even watch England, you just seem to be negative about everything. Maybe I've got wrong impression but it does appear that way.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Oct 2023, 9:56 am

mountain man wrote:I enjoy watching England play rugby, usually. I think given backline picked, Youngs excepted maybe, there is potential there for some adventure.

If you really think I'm looking forward to watching same old tactics of loads of kicking then you are mistaken. I'm not sure England will change style drastically but at least with players selected and given less resting on result then there is definite possibilty of some decent rugby.

I do wonder why you even watch England, you just seem to be negative about everything. Maybe I've got wrong impression but it does appear that way.

I've openly said it's rubbish since the start of 2020. Unfortunately I support england and it feels enforced as a sports fan to watch your team no matter what. Its been dull and depressing tbh. At least with Borthwick I have little expectation unlike with Jones so the defeats are easier to take.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 27 Oct 2023, 11:01 am

I'd rather the World Cup didn't have a 3rd place play-off.

Since we are playing, it might be an interesting watch. For a start, it's a rematch of the opening pool game, so both teams know each other. There are also still quite a few players who will be in contention for England places. While Borthwick won't want to lose this match, he has more incentive to use it to see what they might offer. There are no Autumn Internationals, so this is the last match before the announcement of the squad for the Six Nations, which is usually in mid-January.

I wonder whether any players asked not to appear in this game, so they would be available earlier for their Premiership clubs.

by mountain man Fri 27 Oct 2023, 11:25 am

Seeing as players get £25k per England game that's probably unlikely!

by Geordie Fri 27 Oct 2023, 12:11 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:I'd rather the World Cup didn't have a 3rd place play-off.

Since we are playing, it might be an interesting watch. For a start, it's a rematch of the opening pool game, so both teams know each other. There are also still quite a few players who will be in contention for England places. While Borthwick won't want to lose this match, he has more incentive to use it to see what they might offer. There are no Autumn Internationals, so this is the last match before the announcement of the squad for the Six Nations, which is usually in mid-January.

I wonder whether any players asked not to appear in this game, so they would be available earlier for their Premiership clubs.

That is one ill be hugely interested to see.

We know of 6 players so far who wont be in the next squad due to retirements and going to France and im pretty sure there will be more retirements so thats a pretty big squad turnover thats coming....

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 27 Oct 2023, 12:37 pm

mountain man wrote:Seeing as players get £25k per England game that's probably unlikely!

I thought, probably wrongly, the calculation works a bit differently in a World Cup, and players aren't paid by the game.

Wonder if Nic Berry and the bunker have been told this match doesn't matter, so they can start issuing red cards again.

by mountain man Fri 27 Oct 2023, 12:49 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
mountain man wrote:Seeing as players get £25k per England game that's probably unlikely!

I thought, probably wrongly, the calculation works a bit differently in a World Cup, and players aren't paid by the game.

Wonder if Nic Berry and the bunker have been told this match doesn't matter, so they can start issuing red cards again.

I'm not sure tbh in RWC, my comment a bit tongue in cheek anyway.

by doctor_grey Fri 27 Oct 2023, 6:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a game with nothing on it doc. For every why not play so and so there's a reason to play another. It's hard to say what motivations each player has shown during the week or how they reacted to the defeat against SA. Who knows how the coaches are preparing for this. Perhaps the staff don't care and let them go out Barbarians style rather than kick everything but what does that say re entertainment. As Wigglesworth says winning is the entertainment not how you play (paraphrased).

This is why I thought it would make sense to give someone like Youngs a last run out in an England jersey as well as any other player not likely to feature for England again. And also the players who did not receive much game time. Seems too logical for me. I know Courtney Lawes is taking a well deserved rest.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Oct 2023, 7:11 pm

I'd see it as sensible to give guys a run out who he wants in the 6 nations. Given the choices of 2 scrum halves whose best years were about 6 years ago there isn't really the opportunity there!

by mountain man Fri 27 Oct 2023, 7:55 pm

Argentina look like they're wearing sashes. Who designed that shirt!

by Geordie Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:01 pm

Well last game...let see some physicality, pace and also open it up a bit.

by Geordie Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:03 pm

A mark in the 22...they should tell Le Roux...

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:06 pm

Ah. I'll miss Youngs.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:08 pm

Nice from Smith. Anyone think he could play at fly half?

by mountain man Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:09 pm

Not sure Arg up for this at the moment. Look very lethargic.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:20 pm

They proper messed that scrum up.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:22 pm

It's like Smith isn't a full back.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nice from Smith. Anyone think he could play at fly half?

I think he looks better as the secondary playmaker to be honest. He always gets the ball with more space. Doesn't have to worry about staying on his feet as England have someone else doing the game management/general stuff. It's almost the equivalent of the free role for an attacking midfielder in football.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:24 pm

mountain man wrote:Not sure Arg up for this at the moment. Look very lethargic.

Not sure, I think England are really fired up though. England's confidence has slowly increased over the tournament, it could be we're seeing that manifest with this performance.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:24 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Nice from Smith. Anyone think he could play at fly half?

I think he looks better as the secondary playmaker to be honest. He always gets the ball with more space. Doesn't have to worry about staying on his feet as England have someone else doing the game management/general stuff. It's almost the equivalent of the free role for an attacking midfielder in football.

It's a complete waste in my eyes. You want him on the ball as much as possible. Albeit not with the kicking tactics we normally like.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:26 pm

Ref forgetting you have to have water carriers off the pitch.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Nice from Smith. Anyone think he could play at fly half?

I think he looks better as the secondary playmaker to be honest. He always gets the ball with more space. Doesn't have to worry about staying on his feet as England have someone else doing the game management/general stuff. It's almost the equivalent of the free role for an attacking midfielder in football.
It's a complete waste in my eyes. You want him on the ball as much as possible. Albeit not with the kicking tactics we normally like.

He's not well equipped for that at international level though. He likes to run ball in hand and inevitably gets tackled at some point at which point England then lack a playmaker and the attack stalls (unless Farrell is at 12 and then the backline lacks midfield ball carriers). Knowing that he has tried to change his style to be more passing and less carrying at which point he's far less effective.

His game management is still a work in progress as well, though that's not unusual for a flyhalf of his age.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:31 pm

He's our best fly half by a distance but Borthwick is we'd to his kicking game hence Farrell is our first choice. Smith did the basics as well yet because everyone know what he can do he gets dismissed when he plays within himself by instruction. It's frustrating. When he was below par with Jones he was top scorer in the 6ns.

by tigertattie Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:31 pm

Surely you can’t throw a jumper in the air like that???

by formerly known as Sam Fri 27 Oct 2023, 8:33 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's our best fly half by a distance but Borthwick is we'd to his kicking game hence Farrell is our first choice. Smith did the basics as well yet because everyone know what he can do he gets dismissed when he plays within himself by instruction. It's frustrating. When he was below par with Jones he was top scorer in the 6ns.

Ford is our best flyhalf by a distance. Smith is our best flyhalf ball in hand which why bringing him into the game as a playmaker when we are in those positions makes sense.

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