World Cup losers Playoff 2023 - The unwanted game - England v Argentina

First topic message reminder :

England Team:

15 M Smith
14 F Steward
13 J Marchant,
12 M Tuilagi
11 H Arundell;
10 O Farrell (c),
9 B Youngs;

1 E Genge (vc),
2 T Dan,
3 W Stuart,
4 M Itoje,
5 O Chessum,
6 T Curry,
7 S Underhill,
8 B Earl.

Replacements: J George, B Rodd, D Cole, D Ribbans, L Ludlam, D Care, G Ford (vc), O Lawrence.

Cumbrian wrote:Well my wife has gone to bed because I have been 'tetchy', thanks a lot England!   I worry this is going to be my immediate future,  Vanessa will certainly not like it.

Really? She awake a few minutes ago.....

So a new 3. 7 8 presumably 9 10 ( from Borthwicks 1st choice 10 of Farrell) 12,13 11 and potentially 14.

And the expectation of finishing 3rd in the 6 nations.

A decent enough game between 2 also-rans - but 3rd & 4th best it was not. Shame boy wonder Arundell didn't get a game. I think the next 4 years are going to be tough for an England fan.

Geordie wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:So for the 6 nations you need an entirely new midfield, decide who your ten is, and two new wingers.
Then decide who's 8 and 6 and the starting front row.
Easy

Very Easy

10 Ford

12 Kelly / Seb Atkinson
13 Lawrence maybe even Daly at 13.

11 Arundel
14 Watson / Freeman/ OHC

6 Curry
7 Earl
8 Mercer / T.Willis and Chandler Cunningham as an apprentice

Oh and
1 Genge
2 George
3. Only one I can't answer

Honestly will he drop Farrell?

I like what I have seen from Kelly and Atkinson

Lawrence should be 13

Arundel is a 15 and you don't seem to like passing him the ball much could see him deciding to stay in France

Love Watson but I think age and injuries are against him now.

Is mercer a borthwick player? I think him and Willis are brilliant but not sure the top man agrees.

carpet baboon wrote:

Geordie wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:So for the 6 nations you need an entirely new midfield, decide who your ten is, and two new wingers.
Then decide who's 8 and 6 and the starting front row.
Easy

Very Easy

10 Ford

12 Kelly / Seb Atkinson
13 Lawrence maybe even Daly at 13.

11 Arundel
14 Watson / Freeman/ OHC

6 Curry
7 Earl
8 Mercer / T.Willis and Chandler Cunningham as an apprentice

Oh and
1 Genge
2 George
3. Only one I can't answer

Honestly will he drop Farrell?

I like what I have seen from Kelly and Atkinson

Lawrence should be 13

Arundel is a 15 and you don't seem to like passing him the ball much could see him deciding to stay in France

Love Watson but I think age and injuries are against him now.

Is mercer a borthwick player? I think him and Willis are brilliant but not sure the top man agrees.

I think Willis more than Mercer..especially of he developes well at Saracens...

Of course Willis was playing against Mercer tonight. No idea of how well they played but the stats say Mercer lasted 29 minutes and Willis scored 2 tries

BREAKING: 7 1/2 revealed to be Rob Kearney:

Good game. Well done England. Enjoyed that. To finish best NH side this cup probably not expected.

Strange thing about this result is the way virtually everyone, including England fans, has immediately qualified it with "Obviously, they aren't third best team in the world". Don't think that has been said so quickly about any third-placed team.

Rugby Fan wrote:BREAKING: 7 1/2 revealed to be Rob Kearney:

Lol. You know sometimes when you're looking at the emperors snazzy new clothes and a load of people are saying but he's got to a semi final....

Taylorman wrote:Good game. Well done England. Enjoyed that. To finish best NH side this cup probably not expected.

Agree, this was not a bad game.  In fairness, a team can only play who they have to play, and England beat almost all of them.  I would have given England a bare minimum passing grade for the tournament, if not for the herculean effort against the Boks, which I truly believe came from the class, will power, and sheer guts of players like Courtney Lawes, Dan Cole, Joe Marler, Jamie George (no mystery when the front row gets its dander up, England do better, then cratered when those props went off).  I would also include Maro Itoje, Ben Earl (the clear England player of the RWC), and Alex Mitchell.  The performance against the Boks, 2 minutes from a W, wasn't coaching, just sheer guts.  I also doubt this team had two of these in them, and may well have lost to Palmerston North Boys' High School in the next game if they had survived against the Boks.  

I feel for Sanchez missing that kick.  Far too easy for a player of his quality to miss, and he could probably drill that kick 100/100 in his sleep under normal conditions.  But, to me, if a team doesn't win the RWC, then they lost.  I enjoyed this tournament more because of Portugal, Chile, Uruguay, Georgia, and, of course, Fiji, than because of a middling and, frankly, uninteresting and uninspiring England.  

I have quite a few mates in Argentina, and, in fact, used a VPN and watched the match in Spanish on Argentina ESPN Deportes.  Partially because the Anglo in-studio match commentary teams we had here were so incredibly bad and partially because the ESPN Deportes teams are knowledgeable, a good listen, and frankly, a bit of fun if one knows Argentina Castellano.  Toward the end of the tournament I gave up on the Anglo broadcasts altogether because of the quality of the commentary.  ESPN Deportes described the matches in compelling terms and conveyed drama.  The stock Anglo commentary teams, perhaps handicapped by being in studio or by simply being cobbled together, conveyed narcolepsy, and may well have been broadcasting from a morgue.

Good luck to the ABs and hope for a riveting game.

Rugby Fan wrote:BREAKING: 7 1/2 revealed to be Rob Kearney:

Were they complaining when SA played noone in the last world Cup run. ..

Let them whinge. Everyone said they weren't getting out of the group...they've got 3rd.

We lose about 10 players now. Bring on the 6n

Who do you mean by everyone?did you not think we would get out the group geordie?is this why you think we're going well?!

Can't say that I was following pundits predictions that closely but just the first result on it seems to suggest most people were predicting a semi final. https://www.rugbypass.com/rugby-world-cup/expert-predictions/

England weren't responsible for the draw beyond being runners up last time out and lost one game by one point. They didn't win through brilliant plays but they did win through sheer guts. There is some hope for the future when there was none at the start of this tournament, so there is that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who do you mean by everyone?did you not think we would get out the group geordie?is this why you think we're going well?!

Can't say that I was following pundits predictions that closely but just the first result on it seems to suggest most people were predicting a semi final. https://www.rugbypass.com/rugby-world-cup/expert-predictions/

No I knew we'd get out the group. I expected a QF exit. But we achieved the semi.

We're miles from perfect or the finished article..but
We've sorted our defence.
Our breakdown is another level to what it was
Lineout a work in progress
Scrum generally good but depth an issue.
We have a mentality now that we're hard to beat.

Things to sort
Attack. Everyone can see that.
We do kick too much needs addressed..but that should sort itself with the attack

Lots of players leaving...I say abut 10 in all. Need to fix some positions aswell...

Big job...but Rome wasn't built in a day....

The positives are England finished 3rd and only loss in entire tourament was by 1 point to SA.
A couple players showed they are good enough Earl(definitely), Mitchell(at times) Dan(definite potential).
England defence is pretty good, they know how to stop a team.

The negatives are England were overall pretty awful. Again. Yet again. Often looked clueless in attack and back to bad old days of kicking away possession in opposition 22. Maddening.
Some of this must be down to tactics from coaches but the ones doing it were experienced Int players so players must also carry can.

Only settled positions are 2nd row and FB. Itoje/Chessum and Steward. All others pretty much STILL undecided.
Is Farrell 10 or Ford? Smith 10 or 15?
9 probably Mitchell but who else will Borthwick bring in.
The age old 12/13 issue.
And wings.
Front row?

Depending upon who Borthwick brings in, England will be a tough team to face in 6N but I don't think many (any?) teams will fear them.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who do you mean by everyone?did you not think we would get out the group geordie?is this why you think we're going well?!

Can't say that I was following pundits predictions that closely but just the first result on it seems to suggest most people were predicting a semi final. https://www.rugbypass.com/rugby-world-cup/expert-predictions/

No I knew we'd get out the group. I expected a QF exit. But we achieved the semi.

We're miles from perfect or the finished article..but
We've sorted our defence.
Our breakdown is another level to what it was
Lineout a work in progress
Scrum generally good but depth an issue.
We have a mentality now that we're hard to beat.

Things to sort
Attack. Everyone can see that.
We do kick too much needs addressed..but that should sort itself with the attack

Lots of players leaving...I say abut 10 in all. Need to fix some positions aswell...

Big job...but Rome wasn't built in a day....

So who exactly was saying we wouldn't get out of the group?
I'd say the defence is still iffy but we have a new style to learn apparently as Sinfield is leaving so a bit back to square 1. Breakdown is much the same but a lot depends on the above. Scrum I would describe as good against sa for the starters,they're apparently some of the retirees.
And the kicking and the attack is how Borthwick wants us to play so it isn't going to change.

mountain man wrote:The positives are England finished 3rd and only loss in entire tourament was by 1 point to SA.
A couple players showed they are good enough Earl(definitely), Mitchell(at times) Dan(definite potential).
England defence is pretty good, they know how to stop a team.

The negatives are England were overall pretty awful. Again. Yet again. Often looked clueless in attack and back to bad old days of kicking away possession in opposition 22. Maddening.
Some of this must be down to tactics from coaches but the ones doing it were experienced Int players so players must also carry can.

Only settled positions are 2nd row and FB. Itoje/Chessum and Steward. All others pretty much STILL undecided.
Is Farrell 10 or Ford? Smith 10 or 15?
9 probably Mitchell but who else will Borthwick bring in.
The age old 12/13 issue.
And wings.
Front row?

Depending upon who Borthwick brings in, England will be a tough team to face in 6N but I don't think many (any?) teams will fear them.

I think Italy will be targeting the first game up not fearing it.

doctor_grey wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Good game. Well done England. Enjoyed that. To finish best NH side this cup probably not expected.

I feel for Sanchez missing that kick.  Far too easy for a player of his quality to miss, and he could probably drill that kick 100/100 in his sleep under normal conditions.  But, to me, if a team doesn't win the RWC, then they lost.  I enjoyed this tournament more because of Portugal, Chile, Uruguay, Georgia, and, of course, Fiji, than because of a middling and, frankly, uninteresting and uninspiring England.  

I have quite a few mates in Argentina, and, in fact, used a VPN and watched the match in Spanish on Argentina ESPN Deportes.  Partially because the Anglo in-studio match commentary teams we had here were so incredibly bad and partially because the ESPN Deportes teams are knowledgeable, a good listen, and frankly, a bit of fun if one knows Argentina Castellano.  Toward the end of the tournament I gave up on the Anglo broadcasts altogether because of the quality of the commentary.  ESPN Deportes described the matches in compelling terms and conveyed drama.  The stock Anglo commentary teams, perhaps handicapped by being in studio or by simply being cobbled together, conveyed narcolepsy, and may well have been broadcasting from a morgue.

Good luck to the ABs and hope for a riveting game.

Interesting that you understand Argentinian Spanish. I take it you heard Sanchez say “la concha de tu madre” when he missed his kick. You wouldnt hear an English player say that . I have been learning Rioplatense Castellano and Lunfardo for about ten years now. It isnt that easy to follow the commentary. Takes a while to get used to the Lunfardo slang, use of voseo and other pronouns, the difference in conjugation of the subjunctive and imperative and even the different pronunciation of the Ll or y sound. I also have all the Argentinian channels but watched it on Irish tv

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:The positives are England finished 3rd and only loss in entire tourament was by 1 point to SA.
A couple players showed they are good enough Earl(definitely), Mitchell(at times) Dan(definite potential).
England defence is pretty good, they know how to stop a team.

The negatives are England were overall pretty awful. Again. Yet again. Often looked clueless in attack and back to bad old days of kicking away possession in opposition 22. Maddening.
Some of this must be down to tactics from coaches but the ones doing it were experienced Int players so players must also carry can.

Only settled positions are 2nd row and FB. Itoje/Chessum and Steward. All others pretty much STILL undecided.
Is Farrell 10 or Ford? Smith 10 or 15?
9 probably Mitchell but who else will Borthwick bring in.
The age old 12/13 issue.
And wings.
Front row?

Depending upon who Borthwick brings in, England will be a tough team to face in 6N but I don't think many (any?) teams will fear them.

I think Italy will be targeting the first game up not fearing it.

So you keep saying....

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:The positives are England finished 3rd and only loss in entire tourament was by 1 point to SA.
A couple players showed they are good enough Earl(definitely), Mitchell(at times) Dan(definite potential).
England defence is pretty good, they know how to stop a team.

The negatives are England were overall pretty awful. Again. Yet again. Often looked clueless in attack and back to bad old days of kicking away possession in opposition 22. Maddening.
Some of this must be down to tactics from coaches but the ones doing it were experienced Int players so players must also carry can.

Only settled positions are 2nd row and FB. Itoje/Chessum and Steward. All others pretty much STILL undecided.
Is Farrell 10 or Ford? Smith 10 or 15?
9 probably Mitchell but who else will Borthwick bring in.
The age old 12/13 issue.
And wings.
Front row?

Depending upon who Borthwick brings in, England will be a tough team to face in 6N but I don't think many (any?) teams will fear them.

I think Italy will be targeting the first game up not fearing it.

So you keep saying....

It's the obvious one for them. Try to catch a team they've never beaten cold. In front of their home fans and after seeing Fiji do it this year. Win that they're on for avoiding the wooden spoon. England is dissaray after losing several players to retirements and playing abroad. Losing their defence coach. Big big game.

You don't think they'll be thinking that's their best chance of a win next year?

That and probs Wales post retirements.

Didn't notice that Dan fist to the head when he scored the try yesterday. What was the tmo doing all game?

To be fair it was just a bit of afters. I think the ref saw it and said "hey hey" but didn’t see it as malicious. Clearly Borthwick wants to see bite from England but that’s probably because they’ve had a poor year. Dan over stepped it but probably realised afterwards that he was a bit silly. Argentina player didn’t really care.

That match was a poor example of using the TMO for every little incident. The ref imo was far too nice to the players. Both sides were demanding a lot from him and he should have stamped his authority on that. It slowed the game down as well.

It's a pen at least.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't notice that Dan fist to the head when he scored the try yesterday. What was the tmo doing all game?

I don't think he was very happy with the Pumas forearm to his head as he slid in to score. All handbags. Wasn't a strike more of a push. I think Berry was more worried that it was about to kick off with all the England subs stood there ready to pile in.

It was right in front of the ref and was a push not a strike. The English subs were in very quick to drag him away though.

lostinwales wrote:It was right in front of the ref and was a push not a strike. The English subs were in very quick to drag him away though.

It was really dumb, was surprised it wasnt checked.

The ref was right there so probably thought no need to check what he's already seen for himself ...

It was a pen though surely. I deliberately didn't say punch but it was a clenched fist.

Depends on whether you're in the penalise the one that started it or the one that reacted camp - or the it's just handbags and get on with it camp ....

Heaf wrote:Depends on whether you're in the penalise the one that started it or the one that reacted camp - or the it's just handbags and get on with it camp ....

It normally goes on the over the top reaction. I thought you were 1 for picking up refs mistakes heaf!

Yes indeed I am - but I'm not sure there was really much in it - although admittedly I haven't gone back and looked.

I have however noticed a bit of a shift recently in refs being more inclined now to look at the instigator more than the reactor - which IMHO is the correct way to go.

I didn't think there was a great deal in it. The Puma wasn't fussed which is the normal clear sign that either he was in the wrong initially or it was just handbags.

Collapse2005 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Good game. Well done England. Enjoyed that. To finish best NH side this cup probably not expected.

I feel for Sanchez missing that kick.  Far too easy for a player of his quality to miss, and he could probably drill that kick 100/100 in his sleep under normal conditions.  But, to me, if a team doesn't win the RWC, then they lost.  I enjoyed this tournament more because of Portugal, Chile, Uruguay, Georgia, and, of course, Fiji, than because of a middling and, frankly, uninteresting and uninspiring England.  

I have quite a few mates in Argentina, and, in fact, used a VPN and watched the match in Spanish on Argentina ESPN Deportes.  Partially because the Anglo in-studio match commentary teams we had here were so incredibly bad and partially because the ESPN Deportes teams are knowledgeable, a good listen, and frankly, a bit of fun if one knows Argentina Castellano.  Toward the end of the tournament I gave up on the Anglo broadcasts altogether because of the quality of the commentary.  ESPN Deportes described the matches in compelling terms and conveyed drama.  The stock Anglo commentary teams, perhaps handicapped by being in studio or by simply being cobbled together, conveyed narcolepsy, and may well have been broadcasting from a morgue.

Good luck to the ABs and hope for a riveting game.

Interesting that you understand Argentinian Spanish. I take it you heard Sanchez say “la concha de tu madre” when he missed his kick. You wouldnt hear an English player say that . I have been learning Rioplatense Castellano and Lunfardo for about ten years now. It isnt that easy to follow the commentary. Takes a while to get used to the Lunfardo slang, use of voseo and other pronouns, the difference in conjugation of the subjunctive and imperative and even the different pronunciation of the Ll or y sound. I also have all the Argentinian channels but watched it on Irish tv

This was really funny!  A conversation about la concha.....
After surgery I shouldn't laugh as hard as this!

Yeah, we all heard Sanchez, and none of us thought it was a big deal.  I probably would have said much worse!  And maybe if the English would learn how to 'swear with flair', they would do better.  I lived in BA for a couple of years before moving to America.  I always thought BA Castellano and Lunfardo are basically the same?  But I rarely made it over the river.  Do I have that right?  It's not like trying to understand Portuñol which seems different with every person I would talk to.

Heaf wrote:Yes indeed I am - but I'm not sure there was really much in it - although admittedly I haven't gone back and looked.

I have however noticed a bit of a shift recently in refs being more inclined now to look at the instigator more than the reactor - which IMHO is the correct way to go.

Bad news for England under Borthwick

doctor_grey wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Good game. Well done England. Enjoyed that. To finish best NH side this cup probably not expected.

I feel for Sanchez missing that kick.  Far too easy for a player of his quality to miss, and he could probably drill that kick 100/100 in his sleep under normal conditions.  But, to me, if a team doesn't win the RWC, then they lost.  I enjoyed this tournament more because of Portugal, Chile, Uruguay, Georgia, and, of course, Fiji, than because of a middling and, frankly, uninteresting and uninspiring England.  

I have quite a few mates in Argentina, and, in fact, used a VPN and watched the match in Spanish on Argentina ESPN Deportes.  Partially because the Anglo in-studio match commentary teams we had here were so incredibly bad and partially because the ESPN Deportes teams are knowledgeable, a good listen, and frankly, a bit of fun if one knows Argentina Castellano.  Toward the end of the tournament I gave up on the Anglo broadcasts altogether because of the quality of the commentary.  ESPN Deportes described the matches in compelling terms and conveyed drama.  The stock Anglo commentary teams, perhaps handicapped by being in studio or by simply being cobbled together, conveyed narcolepsy, and may well have been broadcasting from a morgue.

Good luck to the ABs and hope for a riveting game.

Interesting that you understand Argentinian Spanish. I take it you heard Sanchez say “la concha de tu madre” when he missed his kick. You wouldnt hear an English player say that . I have been learning Rioplatense Castellano and Lunfardo for about ten years now. It isnt that easy to follow the commentary. Takes a while to get used to the Lunfardo slang, use of voseo and other pronouns, the difference in conjugation of the subjunctive and imperative and even the different pronunciation of the Ll or y sound. I also have all the Argentinian channels but watched it on Irish tv

This was really funny!  A conversation about la concha.....
After surgery I shouldn't laugh as hard as this!

Yeah, we all heard Sanchez, and none of us thought it was a big deal.  I probably would have said much worse!  And maybe if the English would learn how to 'swear with flair', they would do better.  I lived in BA for a couple of years before moving to America.  I always thought BA Castellano and Lunfardo are basically the same?  But I rarely made it over the river.  Do I have that right?  It's not like trying to understand Portuñol which seems different with every person I would talk to.

Yeah it was funny alright, my mother in law says it all the time. BA Castellano is the dialect of Spanish they speak in Buenos Aires which features different intonations and sounds such as the LL and Y sounds and the use of voseo and other gramatical variations while Lunfardo is the slang words they use many of which originate from Italy such as pibes, minas, quilombo (Portugese/Angola), boludo etc. I might be slightly wrong but I think Lunfardo is a feature of BA Castallano rather than the same thing but they are probably used inter changeably anyway. Buenos Aires is a great place, go there a lot.

Re turning anything I can into a negative which seems to be my mo at the moment. The man of the moment that is Earl .... is he a long term option for many people?he's offering some great one off moments like his break and try but is he a real option at 8 particularly when we put forward a real 6 rather than Lawes who I've always considered a lock?

Is Ollie Chessum a long term option? Admittedly he's been good in the set-piece and loose. Strong defensively, carrying well, big work rate, excellent lineout option. He isn't 12 feet tall and 39 stone with a sub 9 second 100m though. Should we be using players that aren't half machine? Borthwick has a lot to answer for with England's bionics program lagging behind.

No 7&1/2 wrote:...The man of the moment that is Earl .... is he a long term option for many people?...

Will he play No.8 for his club? Tom Willis and Billy Vunipola are both at Saracens.

He doesn't seem to get injured as much as back row competition like Jack Willis, Ben Curry, Alfie Barbeary and Sam Underhill, which might help him stay in regular contention.

king_carlos wrote:Is Ollie Chessum a long term option? Admittedly he's been good in the set-piece and loose. Strong defensively, carrying well, big work rate, excellent lineout option. He isn't 12 feet tall and 39 stone with a sub 9 second 100m though. Should we be using players that aren't half machine? Borthwick has a lot to answer for with England's bionics program lagging behind.

I mean for me itoje and chessum are the longish ish term options for me at lock but I know some are wanting to phase Itoje out quickly simply as he isn't big enough. I assume the half machine thing is to take the pass out of me because you think it's unrealistic to drop Earl at all?

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:...The man of the moment that is Earl .... is he a long term option for many people?...

Will he play No.8 for his club? Tom Willis and Billy Vunipola are both at Saracens.

He doesn't seem to get injured as much as back row competition like Jack Willis, Ben Curry, Alfie Barbeary and Sam Underhill, which might help him stay in regular contention.

Barberry to me seems the most likely to film the role Borthwick wants with a load more ability too. Willis I think is good but has never struck me as good enough or physical enough for an international 8. Not sure what saracens plan is though as its unlikely he's getting moved to 6 there so it's a head to head with him and Vunipola.

Earl definitely long term option, either at 7 or 8. Chessum likewise at lock.

mountain man wrote:Earl definitely long term option, either at 7 or 8. Chessum likewise at lock.

Above a 12 feet tall flanker thoug?brave call.

Willis scored a good try knocking off two defenders...but not just smashing them.  

Irs between him and Mercer for the 8 spot.

6 Curry
7 Earl
8 Willis / Mercer

Underhill...he's a problem for me. On a solely rugby decision no brained he's in...just I just fear for his health.

Locks
Chessum / Itoje / Martin
Rotate as per opposition..

Apparently Marler has told the camp he is definitely retiring...again.

Interesto hear Fitzpatrick say it takes a cycle to bulkd a world Cup winning team.....but NZ have potential done it in 12 months.

Yet seemingly England fans Expect Borthwick to do it in 4 months

Geordie wrote:Interesto hear Fitzpatrick say it takes a cycle to bulkd a world Cup winning team.....but NZ have potential done it in 12 months.

Yet seemingly England fans Expect Borthwick to do it in 4 months

Wow. So we can expect this team to achieve this level for 3 years plus. Great news.

That's said NZ will start again next year with a new coach. So will Sa. So a couple if teams in with us and expecting several defeats.

Oh sorry. Misread that. For a wc winning squad. I wasn't expecting that from Borthwick, just a semi final, I did expect a final from Jones at least. Not sure anyone predicted a win....even his backers were predicting a quarter final exit in some cases.

I assume your meaning me as the backer predicting a quarter final exit. Yes I did.

Because I knew it was laughable to expect them to play like the Fijian 7s in 4 months after the state Jones left us in.