World Cup losers Playoff 2023 - The unwanted game - England v Argentina

First topic message reminder :

England Team:

15 M Smith
14 F Steward
13 J Marchant,
12 M Tuilagi
11 H Arundell;
10 O Farrell (c),
9 B Youngs;

1 E Genge (vc),
2 T Dan,
3 W Stuart,
4 M Itoje,
5 O Chessum,
6 T Curry,
7 S Underhill,
8 B Earl.

Replacements: J George, B Rodd, D Cole, D Ribbans, L Ludlam, D Care, G Ford (vc), O Lawrence.

Yeah I was saying I don't think I saw anyone expecting a win. Pretty much like when you said there were people saying they would go out in the group. I didn't see either predictions myself. And then there is a sidestep of saying Fiji 7s which was a distraction about me wanting to see entertainment....but then even Borthwicks backers have repeatedly mentioned he need sto sort his awful attack out. So. Yeah. Great points.

Geordie wrote:Willis scored a good try knocking off two defenders...but not just smashing them.  

Irs between him and Mercer for the 8 spot.

6 Curry
7 Earl
8 Willis / Mercer

Underhill...he's a problem for me. On a solely rugby decision no brained he's in...just I just fear for his health.

Locks
Chessum / Itoje / Martin
Rotate as per opposition..

Agree about Underhill. I would like to see him get through a club season with a managed work load before returning to international duty. But we know that won't happen.

He was quite good the other day.

Oh ive seen lots of columns and countless statements on various social media saying we wouldnt get out the group.

By backers..again you mean me .... absolutely i want an attack developed. Its an essential part of the game but I'm glad to see we're working on the basics first...breakdown, discipline, etc then the attack. A house is only as strong as its foundations...

On a side note...Judging by this final England's physicality was excellent..and George Martins performance taking it to the boks forwards shows he will be a big player for us ....

doctor_grey wrote:

Geordie wrote:Willis scored a good try knocking off two defenders...but not just smashing them.  

Irs between him and Mercer for the 8 spot.

6 Curry
7 Earl
8 Willis / Mercer

Underhill...he's a problem for me. On a solely rugby decision no brained he's in...just I just fear for his health.

Locks
Chessum / Itoje / Martin
Rotate as per opposition..

Agree about Underhill.  I would like to see him get through a club season with a managed work load before returning to international duty.  But we know that won't happen.  

He was quite good the other day.  

He was top class...20+ tackles ferocious physicality...but...there's health is more important. I guess it's the same as when George North was seemingly getting knocked out regularly...

Geordie wrote:Oh ive seen lots of columns and countless statements on various social media saying we wouldnt get out the group.

By backers..again you mean me .... absolutely i want an attack developed. Its an essential part of the game but I'm glad to see we're working on the basics first...breakdown, discipline, etc then the attack. A house is only as strong as its foundations...

On a side note...Judging by this final England's physicality was excellent..and George Martins performance taking it to the boks forwards shows he will be a big player for us ....

Who were they re not getting out of the group?I quite like Martin. Thought it was a bit early for him particularly from lock and thought there were better options this wc but I was all for giving experience...just not sure that was what Borthwick himself was targeting.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Oh ive seen lots of columns and countless statements on various social media saying we wouldnt get out the group.

By backers..again you mean me .... absolutely i want an attack developed. Its an essential part of the game but  I'm glad to see we're working on the basics first...breakdown, discipline, etc  then the attack. A house is only as strong as its foundations...

On a side note...Judging by this final England's physicality was excellent..and George Martins performance taking it to the boks forwards shows he will be a big player for us ....

Who were they re not getting out of the group?I quite like Martin. Thought it was a bit early for him particularly from lock and thought there were better options this wc but I was all for giving experience...just not sure that was what Borthwick himself was targeting.

Aw I'm not trawling through all the media. I did note it because I support why SB is doing
.

Borthwick brought Martin through for the Tigers. I'm pretty sure after a quiet tournament (as expected for a young lock) he backed him to really bring the power and physicality against the Boks..and boy did he as did the rest of the starting 15...

Fair enough geordie,no-one saw or remembered them so obviously a very slight minority. And yes I quite like Martin though I think he's probably more now a 6 right now. I was surprised that given we were all about the oow that Ribbams was ignored.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough geordie,no-one saw or remembered them so obviously a very slight minority. And yes I quite like Martin though I think he's probably more now a 6 right now. I was surprised that given we were all about the oow that Ribbams was ignored.

You tone is suggesting I'm lieing...? Is that the case?

No Martin is a set In stone lock....Ollie Chessum is more likely to play 6.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough geordie,no-one saw or remembered them so obviously a very slight minority. And yes I quite like Martin though I think he's probably more now a 6 right now. I was surprised that given we were all about the oow that Ribbams was ignored.

You tone is suggesting I'm lieing...? Is that the case?

No Martin is a set In stone lock....Ollie Chessum is more likely to play 6.

No I'm just saying no one can remember who did it even those quoting it. I'd put a link where everyone had predicted a semi final so merely saying it must be a minority. Can't read tone into text so happy to correct that view.

And at the moment it's Itoje and Chessum at lock and merely me passing the possibility that Boryhwick may use Martin as a 6 as he's been used for Leicester in the recent past.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re turning anything I can into a negative which seems to be my mo at the moment. The man of the moment that is Earl .... is he a long term option for many people?he's offering some great one off moments like his break and try but is he a real option at 8 particularly when we put forward a real 6 rather than Lawes who I've always considered a lock?

Your one in a million 7&1/2.

The other 999,999 people think he is one of the best 6es in the world and has been for a few years. Every England manager, Every Lions manager and most professionals that put together world 23s. He showed it again in this RWC.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Oh ive seen lots of columns and countless statements on various social media saying we wouldnt get out the group.

By backers..again you mean me .... absolutely i want an attack developed. Its an essential part of the game but  I'm glad to see we're working on the basics first...breakdown, discipline, etc  then the attack. A house is only as strong as its foundations...

On a side note...Judging by this final England's physicality was excellent..and George Martins performance taking it to the boks forwards shows he will be a big player for us ....

Who were they re not getting out of the group?I quite like Martin.

I think you are both talking slightly at cross purposes. When asked to make a firm prediction, most pundits had England progressing to the quarter finals. However, many of the same pundits also said that, if England continued to play as badly as they had in the run-up to the tournament, then we were in danger of not qualifying.

This wasn't a wild claim. Except in exceptional circumstances, any team making the quarter finals can usually afford to lose only one pool match. England were matched with Argentina, Japan and Samoa. We had lost in our previous meeting with Argentina, and just lost to Fiji. As it turns out, Samoa's returning internationals did not mount the kind of challenge offered by Fiji but we did not know that for sure at the time. There was also an outside chance Japan would have a good performance in them.

The chances of England progressing from the group were always good but the risks of not doing so rose notably during the warm-up games.