Scotland V New Zealand - November 15th

by GLove39 Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

Scotland V New Zealand - November 15th - Page 9 Scotla10

Scotland V New Zealand - November 15th - Page 9 Nz_pro11

Scotland v New Zealand

Date: Saturday, November 15
Venue: BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh
Kickoff: 17:30 local (GMT)
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant Referees: Johnny Lacey (Ireland), Stuart Berry (South Africa)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)

************************

Right this isn't one of your GC fancy pants matchday threads, I'm in charge this time.

Had originally considered calling it the 'Kiwi Krushing Kelebration' thread, but realized that'd be an inappropriate acronym...

Now onto the game, normally you'd expect to read about form / head to head here, but for reasons which I'll go onto none of that really matters because this is the year that we will finally beat the All Blacks!

Now what makes me so sure you ask, well quite simply, I've a cast iron, 100% scientific theory that proves that next weekend we will at long last neutralize New Zealand.

2003 England win the Rugby World Cup - 3 years later they lose at Murrayfield
2007 South Africa win the Rugby World Cup - 3 years later they lose at Murrayfield
2011 New Zealand win the Rugby World Cup - 3 years later... Yahoo

Quite simply and to quote Tinie Tempah, it's "written in the stars".

Teams to be announced (not that it matters).

Scotland
Scotland V New Zealand - November 15th - Page 9 Singer-susan-boyle-006

Scotland V New Zealand - November 15th - Page 9 Singer-susan-boyle-006

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors); 25 caps
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors); 14 caps
13 Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors), 1 cap
12 Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors); 9 caps
11 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors); 11 caps
10 Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors); 3 caps
9 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Gloucester); 32 caps

1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby); 37 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby); 78 caps
3 Euan Murray (Glasgow Warriors); 61 caps
4 Richie Gray (Castres); 40 caps
5 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors); 6 caps
6 Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors); 8 caps
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish); 4 caps
8 Adam Ashe (Glasgow Warriors); 2 caps

16 Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors); 1 cap
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors); 4 caps
18 Geoff Cross (London Irish); 33 caps
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors); 9 caps
20 Johnnie Beattie (Castres); 32 caps
21 Chris Cusiter (Sale Sharks); 68 caps
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors); 16 caps
23 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors); 89 caps

New Zealand
Scotland V New Zealand - November 15th - Page 9 G8396_u16978_jackson2

Scotland V New Zealand - November 15th - Page 9 G8396_u16978_jackson2

15 Ben Smith
14 Colin Slade
13 Malakai Fekitoa
12 Ryan Crotty
11 Charle Piutau
10 Dan Carter
09 TJ Perenara

08 Victor Vito
07 Sam Cane
06 Richie McCaw
05 Dominic Bird
04 Jeremy Thrush
03 Charlie Faumuina
02 James Parsons
01 Joe Moody

16 Dane Coles
17 Wyatt Crockett
18 Ben Franks
19 Luke Romano
20 Liam Messam
21 Augustin Pulu
22 Sonny Bill Williams
23 Julian Savea.

Braveheart

by **George Carlin** Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:32 pm

FecklessRogue wrote:I'm surprised Scots are so upbeat. That was the worst New Zealand performance in a long time. Scotland will never get a better chance than that to beat them but they made so many mistakes.

Five things, Feckless, old socks:

1. In our last two games against the Blackness, we shipped at least 50 points. I'm no expert on the game, but I think that to finish within 8 is Better.
2. This is a spectacularly inexperienced Scotland team. Half of the team is under 25 and 7 of the starting 15 had fewer than 10 caps.
3. If Laidlaw had nailed the kick on 70 minutes (the only one he missed all day), then Scotland would have been 2 points ahead at the arse end of the match.
4. This is the coach's second game in charge where he was in control of selection and tactics.
5. Nobody has said that they are happy with the defeat. I, personally, am still p!ssed that we didn't make them work much harder.

by **BigGee** Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:35 pm

FecklessRogue wrote:I'm surprised Scots are so upbeat. That was the worst New Zealand performance in a long time. Scotland will never get a better chance than that to beat them but they made so many mistakes.

Perhaps it was the worst performance because of the pressure the Scots put on them, giving them no time to weave their magic. At the end of the day they are still the All Blacks, who don't lose very often, Ireland will remember that, having also squandered a very good chance last year!

This is a very young and inexperienced Scotland side. If they continue to play like that and to grow, then they will get another chance. They now know what it will take!

by **BigGee** Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:40 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
BigGee wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Disagree on Cross - I thought he did fine tonight, and has done well for us in the past

He is the best of the rest at the moment, but I don't think he wold be in the squad if Welsh or Cussack were fit. It is slightly worrying that he has gone down to LI and is struggling to hold down a squad place there as well, which kind of suggests that it was not just down to Solomon's view of him. The scrum was not solid today, even more so when Murray went off. A good TH has to be able to anchor the scrum and that is just not happening. When you consider how good our line out was today, our scrum was disappointing. It needs to be improved.

Welsh is still fairly unproven as an international tighthead, and cusak hasn't played in 18 months or something like that.

Agree that the LI move hasn't gone well for him though.

Compared to the rest of our team, TH does seem to be our Achilles heal at the moment. I hope someone steps up for the world cup, Welsh, Cussack, Cross, Nel? Murray can't do it all alone and Fargerson won't be ready till the next one. Its a little bit of a worry!

by FecklessRogue Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:43 pm

George Carlin wrote:
FecklessRogue wrote:I'm surprised Scots are so upbeat. That was the worst New Zealand performance in a long time. Scotland will never get a better chance than that to beat them but they made so many mistakes.
Five things, Feckless, old socks:

1. In our last two games against the Blackness, we shipped at least 50 points. I'm no expert on the game, but I think that to finish within 8 is Better.
2. This is a spectacularly inexperienced Scotland team. Half of the team is under 25 and 7 of the starting 15 had fewer than 10 caps.
3. If Laidlaw had nailed the kick on 70 minutes (the only one he missed all day), then Scotland would have been 2 points ahead at the arse end of the match.
4. This is the coach's second game in charge where he was in control of selection and tactics.
5. Nobody has said that they are happy with the defeat. I, personally, am still p!ssed that we didn't make them work much harder.

I didn't know they were so young and inexperienced. Fair enough. Seeing your team move in the right direction is very pleasing. Hopefully ye can cause some upsets in the 6 Nations.

by blackcanelion Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:47 pm

A few thoughts. Still digesting the game.

Scotland first:

Lineout: Good. Won their own ball and pressurized NZ.
Scrum: Struggled today, but will be stronger with players returning from ingury.
Kicking game: Generally OK
Rucks: Some good turnovers and spoiling work.
Defence: Pretty good, Good rush defence, although probably a bit enthusiastic (i.e. offside).
Offence: Not the best. Plenty to improve on.

NZ

Lineout: pretty poor. Managed to win ball near the front. But it's a pretty short forward pack overall, with few combinations so not unexpected.
Scrum: Did pretty well. Surprisingly well in fact. I'm guessing it was a work on for last week.
Kicking game: Patchy
Defence: Generally very good. Forced Scotland back 30-40 m at one point.
Offence: Probably the most limited I've seen for a while. I'm thinking a range of factors.

It's not a game I felt they were going to lose at any point, but I can't say I'd have been gutted if we had. I think everyone gets something out of the game.

Perspective is an interesting thing. This is pretty much a team of reserves, second string players, players returning from injury and players playing out of position. They won at Murrayfield on a weeks preparation. That's is worth celebrating. I think all the players on both sides will be better for the run.

by Guest Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:48 pm

Yes, Scotland smothered the ABs so they couldnt get into 2nd gear. From our perspective. We need Aaron Smith to play as many minutes as he can handle. TJ Perenara's passing was snail like and sometimes inaccurate. DC had a very underwhelming game and missed potentially important kicks. In my mind, it's Cruden, Barret, Slade and then DC. At least slade is kicking well and he actually seems to have more vision than DC these days.

by **BigGee** Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:50 pm

This years 6 nations starting to look very interesting. The French appear to be undergoing something of a renaissance, Ireland in commanding form, Scotland improving and hard to imagine that England and Wales won't find some form at some stage.

All to play for!

by blackcanelion Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:53 pm

ebop wrote:Yes, Scotland smothered the ABs so they couldnt get into 2nd gear. From our perspective. We need Aaron Smith to play as many minutes as he can handle. TJ Perenara's passing was snail like and sometimes inaccurate. DC had a very underwhelming game and missed potentially important kicks. In my mind, it's Cruden, Barret, Slade and then DC. At least slade is kicking well and he actually seems to have more vision than DC these days.

You're probably right about DC. But I think this was a calculated development tour for him. He's played just over a couple of games in the last last year due to injuries. Bring him into the All Blacks, give him some game time, get him used to the new systems. he plays Super rugby next year. Baring injury He'll probably improve.

I think we didn't earn the right to go wide today. I think a few pick and go's, crash balls etc and short kicks and we'd have gone someway to negating the Scottish defence. Instead we tried to pass around it. It didn't really come off.

by **BigGee** Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:56 pm

ebop wrote:Yes, Scotland smothered the ABs so they couldnt get into 2nd gear. From our perspective. We need Aaron Smith to play as many minutes as he can handle. TJ Perenara's passing was snail like and sometimes inaccurate. DC had a very underwhelming game and missed potentially important kicks. In my mind, it's Cruden, Barret, Slade and then DC. At least slade is kicking well and he actually seems to have more vision than DC these days.

Do we really think that DC has had his day, or does he just need more game time to find his form. The NZ selectors are not renowned for their sentimentality. Will they really cut him adrift though? It has to be said though that he did not look the DC of old today!

by **George Carlin** Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:09 pm

The three biggest determining factors today were:

1. The number of mistakes Scotland made;
2. Slade coming on and taking control of the game;
3. Fatigue due to Scotland having to bring on 3 subs in the first half hour,

in that order.

Slade is quite badly underrated, I think.

by Guest Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:12 pm

It's hard to say something like that about DC out of sentimentality but there's no room for passengers on the AB bus. SBW has come back and slotted right back in. It's almost like DC hadn't picked up a rugby ball during his sabbatical or 'leg' injury layoff.

Yeah you're right blackcane, there was no space for the backline today, and the Scots were not worn down like how we like to do to teams. It could have been increased Scottish fitness or it could have been that we didnt 'deserve' it. It was also probably the team selection as well. No Read, Whitelock, Retallic, Savea or SBW bashing it up early to tire them out. Thought Piatau played well though, very busy.

by TJ Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:50 pm

Jonny grays stats are immense - 12 passes, 10 runs for 23 m with one clean break. 16 tackles none misses

by funnyExiledScot Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:58 pm

Jonny Gray had a cracking game, as did Harley. Not sure how the captain, Grant Gilchrist, is going to fit back in to be honest. Gray and Gray works really well.

I still think Ashe could use more power, he seems to get knocked back a lot, but we have moved in a positive direction under Cotter so far. Hopefully we can improve again against Tonga and score more tries. I wouldn't make many changes for that game at all.

by blackcanelion Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:23 pm

George Carlin wrote:The three biggest determining factors today were:

1. The number of mistakes Scotland made;
2. Slade coming on and taking control of the game;
3. Fatigue due to Scotland having to bring on 3 subs in the first half hour,

in that order.

Slade is quite badly underrated, I think.

I'd say the biggest determining factors were:
1: The lack of combination of a scratch all blacks side
2: A high number of unforced errors by the AB's
3: The ability of the AB's to control field position on offence and defence.

I thought Scotland's lineout, Rush defence and some of the ruck work was very good.

by **Biltong** Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:25 pm

The two Gray brothers are IMPRESSIIIIIIVVVVEE

by tigertattie Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:36 pm

Oi bilt, in your neutral opinion. The Grays. Looking to match matfield and Botha?

by **Biltong** Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:41 pm

tigertattie wrote:Oi bilt, in your neutral opinion. The Grays. Looking to match matfield and Botha?

Different combination thouh mate. Matfield was the line out officionado and Bakkies the bulk. The two Gray brothers bring a lot more bulk than Matfield and Botha, I think thy will make a great pairing foe Scotland, but perhaps not the finesse in the line out that Matfield brought.

by reallybored Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:29 am

Chin up lads.

Don't think we played particularly well other than the line-out and in defence. We didn't really kick well, scrum was 50/50, handling was poor, lost territory battle and coughed up possession in key positions.

That said, thought Poite was tough on us and McCaw definitely knocked on in the lead up to Vito's try. Plus losing Bennett so early was a blow.

If we can show that level of intensity and commitment in defence against other teams we'll win more than we lose, that's for sure.

Good performance against Tonga and a win, it'll have been a productive Test series.

by GLove39 Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:51 am

Just back from the game.

Mixed emotions. Very proud of the team, we really took it to New Zealand . And when you think of where we were at the start of the year, the change is brilliant, early days but I really like what Vern is doing with the team.

Also, gutted though, that really was a missed opportunity to make history. If only that kick had gone over...

And finally, hats off to the pre match people at the SRU, an amazing scene clap

by aucklandlaurie Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:24 am

Scotland now have to back up their improving performances with a dominant display next week against the Tongans who I gather dealt to the USA last night.

by **BigGee** Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:52 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:Jonny Gray had a cracking game, as did Harley. Not sure how the captain, Grant Gilchrist, is going to fit back in to be honest. Gray and Gray works really well.

I still think Ashe could use more power, he seems to get knocked back a lot, but we have moved in a positive direction under Cotter so far. Hopefully we can improve again against Tonga and score more tries. I wouldn't make many changes for that game at all.

I think he needs to do a little bit of gentile tinkering for the Tonga game. Some of the other squad players deserve a start and others are going to be shattered after 2 very hard games.

Assuming we always put out our A team in the 6N, this is going to be our last chance for any kind of experimentation for quite some time, By the same token though, this is a game we need to win and we know to our cost not to underestimate the Tongan's.

I would not be upset to see Cusiter start, I thought he added some pace and drive when he came on. Harley and Ashe may be rested, or benched at least and we can see what Dents and Beattie can do.

There will be some enforced changes as well with Bennett definitely out and questions over Murray and Russell. Perhaps this is the game to give Visser a run as well, he will have been watching and can be in no doubt as to what he needs to do now!

We do need a squad for the world cup, so we do need to get others playing as well and get them up to speed with the standards that are currently being set. Even with a few changes, I think we can still put out a pretty good team and get a win.

by **George Carlin** Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:00 am

Yes, Tonga gubbed the Eagles 40-12 at Kingsholm, although 3 of the Tongan tries were scored in a bonkers 6 minute period and perhaps was not a true reflection of the game as a whole.

After GLove's spectacular success with his effort, another ~~victim~~ volunteer to put together the Tonga thread is much appreciated.

by cakeordeath Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:34 am

Just reading some of the comments on Facebook. Most of them make it sound as if the NZ team just met in car park 10 minuted before the game and overcame a biased ref and disrespectful Scots to win a game which they were never going to lose anyway.

by **RDW** Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:37 am

George Carlin wrote:

After GLove's spectacular success with his effort, another ~~victim~~ volunteer to put together the Tonga thread is much appreciated.

What, so you can change it all to one of your all-singing-all-dancing threads after a few days anyway?? Very Happy

by **RDW** Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:07 am

Here's a quote from the NZ Herald - probably as good as we're gonna get!

Scotland were good rather than looking spectacularly remoulded. The big uplift for them was in their defence and ambition. Simple skills done better and with a willingness to see what would happen if they kept the ball in hand rather than hoof it down the field, they may become a decent team in time.

They did however go on to say that the ABs were so poor that even Scotland from the 'bad old days' would have been in the match...

by **Biltong** Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:21 am

It is always said that attitude is what defines defence.

There was plenty of attitude from the Scots.

by The Great Aukster Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:24 am

Biltong wrote:The two Gray brothers are IMPRESSIIIIIIVVVVEE

Jonnie and Ritchie have a nice balance of power and menace, henceforth to be known as the Gray twins!

by **George Carlin** Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:27 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
George Carlin wrote:

After GLove's spectacular success with his effort, another ~~victim~~ volunteer to put together the Tonga thread is much appreciated.

What, so you can change it all to one of your all-singing-all-dancing threads after a few days anyway??

The reason Scottish posters' threads are the best?

Standards. Scotland V New Zealand - November 15th - Page 9 Acigar10

by **Biltong** Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:33 am

George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
George Carlin wrote:

After GLove's spectacular success with his effort, another ~~victim~~ volunteer to put together the Tonga thread is much appreciated.

What, so you can change it all to one of your all-singing-all-dancing threads after a few days anyway??
The reason Scottish posters' threads are the best?

Standards.

Scotland V New Zealand - November 15th - Page 9 Smiley-taunt015

by maestegmafia Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:34 am

What a great game. The scots look like they have much more to come too.

Just what we needed to see after the Pascal Gauzere disaster movie in Cardiff.

by **RDW** Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:34 am

Had a look at the stats - RG made half the number of tackles as JG, even though they're in the same position. I thought Richie had a decent game too!

Harley, Ford and Cowan showing up well in the tackling stats too.

by TJ Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:53 am

Another thing we can see from the stats is 10-15 didn't get a lot of ball to play with - what yu would expect really when you are defending a lot.

I am still pleased with the performance but the lack of depth in many positions remains a worry. The early forced subs stopped us bring on fresh legs in the final 20 mins - and a quick glance at the two subs benches showed up the gulf in class. That and McCaw has more caps than our least experience 13 players combined

by **BigGee** Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:49 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Here's a quote from the NZ Herald - probably as good as we're gonna get!

Scotland were good rather than looking spectacularly remoulded. The big uplift for them was in their defence and ambition. Simple skills done better and with a willingness to see what would happen if they kept the ball in hand rather than hoof it down the field, they may become a decent team in time.

They did however go on to say that the ABs were so poor that even Scotland from the 'bad old days' would have been in the match...

That is probably as close as we will ever get to a compliment from the NZ Herald!

by MacKnocked-on Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:31 pm

I hope that we play the same team against Tonga or as near to it as possible. It's surely vital that we continue to develop this core team going in to the 6N, don't think rotating the squad would be a worthwhile exercise. Perhaps tweak the bench again, try a different tight head rather than Cross if any are fit and available.
Oh, and get Hogg practising his catching this week please, he's been very poor recently in what should be a basic requirement of the fullback.

by SecretFly Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:36 pm

Thanks MacKnocked-On. Hogg's weakness this season noted.

Signed Irish roving spy. Wink

by **RDW** Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:56 pm

Injury update

Bennett out V Tonga. Also injury doubts over Dickinson (leg),Dunbar (ankle),Murray (groin),Ashe (neck), R Gray/Ford (shoulder)and few others

by **George Carlin** Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:19 pm

I read that Visser may also be out (scared).

by **BigGee** Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:46 pm

Sounds like the injuries may dictate some of the selections. That's not necessarily a bad thing though, as we do need a squad as well as a team. We have got 4 group games to play in the world cup, two of which are going to be extremely attricious and we will suffer some injuries.

Players coming in need to be 100% committed to how the team are going to play, a real marker has been put down now.

by TJ Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:02 pm

23 years since we got so close to any all blacks team

by justified sinner Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:37 pm

On a side note a whole load of Argies have invaded my local. They liked it so much last week they've come back, apparently Italy's not as much fun as Edinburgh.

by **George Carlin** Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:41 pm

justified sinner wrote:On a side note a whole load of Argies have invaded my local. They liked it so much last week they've come back, apparently Italy's not as much fun as Edinburgh.

It's FES's staff, who simply have not yet returned to Downton Stockbridge Abbey after their night off this year for good behaviour.

by justified sinner Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:50 pm

Nope they're genuine Argies with funny shirts from their local teams in Argentina. English not great, but I have learned it's your round which seems to be said to me a lot. Still the bars nearly out of Talisker which is my cue to go home.

by GLove39 Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:08 am

Much like your local almost running out of Talisker, seems that the New Zealand herald ran out of compassion.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11359673

Player ratings vary between harsh & exceedingly harsh!

by alive555 Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:18 am

GLove39 wrote:Much like your local almost running out of Talisker, seems that the New Zealand herald ran out of compassion.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11359673

Player ratings vary between harsh & exceedingly harsh!

Nice balanced journalism laughing

by **George Carlin** Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:23 am

Brilliant. Someone should have told that hack that it's traditional to be completely hammered after you submit your copy, not before.

by blackcanelion Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:16 am

alive555 wrote:
GLove39 wrote:Much like your local almost running out of Talisker, seems that the New Zealand herald ran out of compassion.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11359673

Player ratings vary between harsh & exceedingly harsh!

Nice balanced journalism

Got as far as the authors name. Think of a kiwi version of Stephen jones.

by **RDW** Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:34 am

It's not as much the scores he gave the Scots, more the scathing comments that came with it!

He really doesn't like Sean Maitland!

by **George Carlin** Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:15 am

Maitland probably stole his girlfriend in a Christchurch bar in the mid 90s.

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:53 am

Was at the match on Saturday and firstly the pre match lighting was sensational.

Secondly seeing the Kapa O Pango.... pretty special.

As for the match DC and NZ as a whole were pretty fragmented. However Scotland defended well and ran a superb lineout. I hope a lot of the Ford haters (myself included) can look at our lineout stat of 17 won 0 lost and 3 stolen over the last 2 games as a fantastic achievement.

by funnyExiledScot Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:59 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Injury update

Bennett out V Tonga. Also injury doubts over Dickinson (leg),Dunbar (ankle),Murray (groin),Ashe (neck), R Gray/Ford (shoulder)and few others

Shame about Bennett. Assume that Lamont will now start at 13, and if Dunbar is out then Taylor comes in. Not a particularly exciting prospect at centre that, although the Tongans will be physical and Taylor and Lamont are no shrinking violets.

Ashe should be rested anyway for Beattie and Denton (40 minutes each?).

Dickinson is covered by Reid and Grant. Murray is covered by Cross and Welsh. R Gray is covered by Swinson/Hamilton.

I hope Ford gets another game, if for no other reason than to see another silly scrum with neither hooker trying to strike for the ball!!

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