Scotland V New Zealand - November 15th

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Scotland v New Zealand

Date: Saturday, November 15
Venue: BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh
Kickoff: 17:30 local (GMT)
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant Referees: Johnny Lacey (Ireland), Stuart Berry (South Africa)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)

************************

Right this isn't one of your GC fancy pants matchday threads, I'm in charge this time.

Had originally considered calling it the 'Kiwi Krushing Kelebration' thread, but realized that'd be an inappropriate acronym...

Now onto the game, normally you'd expect to read about form / head to head here, but for reasons which I'll go onto none of that really matters because this is the year that we will finally beat the All Blacks!

Now what makes me so sure you ask, well quite simply, I've a cast iron, 100% scientific theory that proves that next weekend we will at long last neutralize New Zealand.  

2003 England win the Rugby World Cup - 3 years later they lose at Murrayfield
2007 South Africa win the Rugby World Cup - 3 years later they lose at Murrayfield
2011 New Zealand win the Rugby World Cup - 3 years later...  

Quite simply and to quote Tinie Tempah, it's "written in the stars".

Teams to be announced (not that it matters).

Scotland

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors); 25 caps
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors); 14 caps
13 Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors), 1 cap
12 Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors); 9 caps
11 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors); 11 caps
10 Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors); 3 caps
9 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Gloucester); 32 caps

1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby); 37 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby); 78 caps
3 Euan Murray (Glasgow Warriors); 61 caps
4 Richie Gray (Castres); 40 caps
5 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors); 6 caps
6 Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors); 8 caps
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish); 4 caps
8 Adam Ashe (Glasgow Warriors); 2 caps

16 Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors); 1 cap
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors); 4 caps
18 Geoff Cross (London Irish); 33 caps
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors); 9 caps
20 Johnnie Beattie (Castres); 32 caps
21 Chris Cusiter (Sale Sharks); 68 caps
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors); 16 caps
23 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors); 89 caps

New Zealand

15 Ben Smith
14 Colin Slade
13 Malakai Fekitoa
12 Ryan Crotty
11 Charle Piutau
10 Dan Carter
09 TJ Perenara

08 Victor Vito
07 Sam Cane
06 Richie McCaw
05 Dominic Bird
04 Jeremy Thrush
03 Charlie Faumuina
02 James Parsons
01 Joe Moody

16 Dane Coles
17 Wyatt Crockett
18 Ben Franks
19 Luke Romano
20 Liam Messam
21 Augustin Pulu
22 Sonny Bill Williams
23 Julian Savea.

As unsporting as some kiwi journalists are, to be fair to them we've hardly done much to earn the respect. Our best performance in my memory was two years ago when we took it to them....but still shipped 51 points! Was it 4 years ago that we went into the game with a strong team expecting a good performance and we got humped by their B team?

As good as our win over Argentina was, I just don't think there's been a big enough step change in the quality of our squad to suddenly find ourselves scrapping it out toe to toe with the ABs - not yet anyway.

However, what I do completely agree with is us not thinking we're going to lose before we even set foot on the pitch. Us fans can have no hope, but the players need to get in their faces and show them no respect (legally of course)

You also need to take into account that we are talking about Scotland! Possibly the most consistent inconsistent team on earth!

It is possible that we beat the All Blacks and then fall before Tonga the following week!

RDW_Scotland wrote:As unsporting as some kiwi journalists are, to be fair to them we've hardly done much to earn the respect. Our best performance in my memory was two years ago when we took it to them....but still shipped 51 points! Was it 4 years ago that we went into the game with a strong team expecting a good performance and we got humped by their B team?

As good as our win over Argentina was, I just don't think there's been a big enough step change in the quality of our squad to suddenly find ourselves scrapping it out toe to toe with the ABs - not yet anyway.

However, what I do completely agree with is us not thinking we're going to lose before we even set foot on the pitch. Us fans can have no hope, but the players need to get in their faces and show them no respect (legally of course)

That's the really big advantage of having a young side - I would imagine that the likes of Finn Russell won't give a feck about reputations. Why would you? Where does that get you?

I completely agree with Jonny's comment above - absolutely pointless to believe that you're just going to turn up for a hiding. If you have that approach, then 'professional athlete' is probably the wrong career for you. We all get used to whatever history dishes up. Who would have guessed Ireland were 90 seconds away from beating NZ less than a year ago? Not many people, but we could be talking right now about how if Ireland can do it (and Glasgow has beaten all of the Irish sides in the Pro 12 over the same period), then we should be able to.

If I was Jonny Gray, I would be absolutely relishing the challenge. Why the hell else are you in the sport and how better to improve yourself? I hate the negativity that goes with being British sometimes. I absolutely refuse to pass it on to my kids.

Sorry, that got serious all of a sudden, but I really do mean it.

George Carlin wrote:.

Sorry, that got serious all of a sudden, but I really do mean it.

Speaking about psychology, wonder how odd this week's game will be for Sean Maitland. Going up against NZ and his past team mates.

I think we can beat New Zealand, but we need a combination of things. We need every man in Navy Blue to play at their absolute best to emerge victorious.

It can be done but it all comes down to 100% concentration 100% of the time.

I don't think we'll win this weekend but I'll settle for giving them a proper scare.

As for respect from the NZ media. I'll quote Gatland for this one:

"You want respect? The only way you get respect from these *charlie uniform november tango*s is if you beat them, that's the only way."

tigertattie wrote:You also need to take into account that we are talking about Scotland! Possibly the most consistent inconsistent team on earth!

It is possible that we beat the All Blacks and then fall before Tonga the following week!

I would take that.....

RDW_Scotland wrote:

George Carlin wrote:.

Sorry, that got serious all of a sudden, but I really do mean it.

That has got to be one of the best lines in cinema, nearly rivalling the one in Dr Strangelove:

You can't fight in here! This is the War Room.

It's true that the Kiwis are a tough outfit - and I'm only talking about their journalists here!

I don't think anyone will ever gain their 'respect' - it's just not in their nature.  The Anzac nature is to mock and ridicule and bluntly sneer.  I don't think it's mean, I don't think it's spiteful.  I actually have a fondness for the gruff exterior.  I just think that's how Aussies and New Zealanders kick fun out of their sports.  It's how they enjoy the world.  "Fair go, take a hit mate and don't moan about it just blast a hit back at me".

I don't think even Australia or South Africa get too much respect in New Zealand journalism so it's a tough group to impress.

But you can play well enough to get 'grudging' respect.  And it's right - you DO have to earn it.  But that's the incentive.  

You earn the grudging respect of Kiwis by meeting them in the challenge and lasting with that challenge to the bitter end.  Possibly a more difficult task of the mind than it is physically but that too is what the ABs play on - tribal fear of them.  If you stand off them out of fear, they've already won the mind game that then makes life so much easier for them in the game itself.

So the first battle is to let them know their reputation won't work, that they'll have to play to get the game.  And I think that attitude comes into play not at the beginning before any side scores but when the ABs have probably scored once or twice.  Then is the time for Scotland to, instead of raising a white flag, calm the emotions, cool the heads and declare that every step forward for a Kiwi from there on in will be a painful one for them.  Get grittier in the mind at the very time they expect life to get much much easier.

That's the effort required - to fully believe 80 minutes is 80 minutes of hope rather than 80 minutes to endure.  ABs thrive on sides that get themselves into an 'endure' mentality.

SecretFly wrote:It's true that the Kiwis are a tough outfit - and I'm only talking about their journalists here!

I don't think anyone will ever gain their 'respect' - it's just not in their nature.  The Anzac nature is to mock and ridicule and bluntly sneer.  I don't think it's mean, I don't think it's spiteful.  I actually have a fondness for the gruff exterior.  I just think that's how Aussies and New Zealanders kick fun out of their sports.  It's how they enjoy the world.  "Fair go, take a hit mate and don't moan about it just blast a hit back at me".

I don't think even Australia or South Africa get too much respect in New Zealand journalism so it's a tough group to impress.

But you can play well enough to get 'grudging' respect.  And it's right - you DO have to earn it.  But that's the incentive.  

You earn the grudging respect of Kiwis by meeting them in the challenge and lasting with that challenge to the bitter end.  Possibly a more difficult task of the mind than it is physically but that too is what the ABs play on - tribal fear of them.  If you stand off them out of fear, they've already won the mind game that then makes life so much easier for them in the game itself.

So the first battle is to let them know their reputation won't work, that they'll have to play to get the game.  And I think that attitude comes into play not at the beginning before any side scores but when the ABs have probably scored once or twice.  Then is the time for Scotland to, instead of raising a white flag, calm the emotions, cool the heads and declare that every step forward for a Kiwi from there on in will be a painful one for them.  Get grittier in the mind at the very time they expect life to get much much easier.

That's the effort required - to fully believe 80 minutes is 80 minutes of hope rather than 80 minutes to endure.  ABs thrive on sides that get themselves into an 'endure' mentality.

I think the battle starts before the whistle. It starts when Scotland see the AB's run onto the pitch and even more importantly, when they perform the haka. I'm not going to the game, but I hope the crowd give the AB's a bit more respect when it's performed than the English did on Saturday.

But that's the crowd only.

The players need to face up to it and challenge it themselves.

Any ideas?

I once played alongside a South African player who came across for a few weeks on a club exchange we had with a Club in praetoria. He was a big unit and a blindside flanker.

He gave us a team talk before our first match with him about how fear is the greatest weapon a team can weild in rugby.


It went something along the lines of this :

"I never care what the opposition intends to do, for they will achieve it when they are afraid. Hit them hard in any contact and every breakdown and sew within their hearts pure fear, and all their plans are ruined in the desperate struggle merely emerge from the game without injury."

Severe stuff, but over the course of that game he threw himself into contact with a recklessness I have never seen in a game of rugby before or since.

The Haka is a fantastic psychological weapon that the All Blacks have masterfully weilded for years.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

SecretFly wrote:It's true that the Kiwis are a tough outfit - and I'm only talking about their journalists here!

I don't think anyone will ever gain their 'respect' - it's just not in their nature.  The Anzac nature is to mock and ridicule and bluntly sneer.  I don't think it's mean, I don't think it's spiteful.  I actually have a fondness for the gruff exterior.  I just think that's how Aussies and New Zealanders kick fun out of their sports.  It's how they enjoy the world.  "Fair go, take a hit mate and don't moan about it just blast a hit back at me".

I don't think even Australia or South Africa get too much respect in New Zealand journalism so it's a tough group to impress.

But you can play well enough to get 'grudging' respect.  And it's right - you DO have to earn it.  But that's the incentive.  

You earn the grudging respect of Kiwis by meeting them in the challenge and lasting with that challenge to the bitter end.  Possibly a more difficult task of the mind than it is physically but that too is what the ABs play on - tribal fear of them.  If you stand off them out of fear, they've already won the mind game that then makes life so much easier for them in the game itself.

So the first battle is to let them know their reputation won't work, that they'll have to play to get the game.  And I think that attitude comes into play not at the beginning before any side scores but when the ABs have probably scored once or twice.  Then is the time for Scotland to, instead of raising a white flag, calm the emotions, cool the heads and declare that every step forward for a Kiwi from there on in will be a painful one for them.  Get grittier in the mind at the very time they expect life to get much much easier.

That's the effort required - to fully believe 80 minutes is 80 minutes of hope rather than 80 minutes to endure.  ABs thrive on sides that get themselves into an 'endure' mentality.

I think the battle starts before the whistle. It starts when Scotland see the AB's run onto the pitch and even more importantly, when they perform the haka. I'm not going to the game, but I hope the crowd give the AB's a bit more respect when it's performed than the English did on Saturday.

But that's the crowd only.

The players need to face up to it and challenge it themselves.

Any ideas?

Already sorted and SRU approved (maybe):

Thanks for the support riskysports, thought I'd be a lone voice there!

The negativity in both Scotland and Britain is quite suffocating. I suspect that if you spoke with a bunch of rugby playing kids at age 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 in both Scotland and New Zealand the attitude and confidence of each would follow very different paths as they grew. I'd think the belief of the kids in NZ would be increasingly that they are better than Scottish kids of their own age, and the Scots would say the reverse. I know they are the best team in the world now but even when they haven't been I reckon that attitude would still be drilled into them. With us, even when we do get an exciting side with great potential, when we should be expecting/demanding this potential to be fulfilled, we sit on the edge of our seats with the words "typical Scotland" primed on our lips ready for the minute something goes wrong.
I don't know if it how they think in day-to-day life or that's just how it is when they switch to "sport" mode. I do know that we don't broadly have it. Mabye that's why we make such self deprecating comedy on TV? Mabye that's why most people liked Henman more than Murray, because we love a valiant loser? (harsh on Timmy, very good player but his Wimbledon record is what most remember him by).

I hope that GC is right and the likes of J Gray and Finn Russell have the stones to stand up on Saturday and say to hell with your reputations.

Oh god, don't let this get dragged into another "respect the haka" thread!

I'd save Visser for the Tonga game. Hopefully they won't get much ball and he won't need to do any defending
BTW, I've got tickets for me and young Anglo for the Tonga game. I'll be travelling up the M6 from the NW of England. Has anyone got good tips for parking or travel into the game at Rugby Park?

Anglobraveheart wrote:Hopefully they won't get much ball and he won't need to do any defending

That was the hope last time we played them. Tonga ended up winning every collision and the game!

Manky-Flanker wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:Hopefully they won't get much ball and he won't need to do any defending

That was the hope last time we played them. Tonga ended up winning every collision and the game!

ah, that was then though. I think we are a much different team now from the last time we played them. Psychology is different, attitudes are different, squad is much deeper, coaching set up is different, there's no comparison really.
The way our pack played on Saturday, if repeated against Tonga, will combat anything that they have to offer.

George Carlin wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Looks like the Irish win over the boks with Schmidt, the scot win over Argie under Cotter is starting to make people nervous back here.
Expect a very solid looking back line with perhaps savea, piatau, fekitoa, sbw or crotty and carter back at 10.
Touch over nervousness to see which of Scotland or Ireland will be the first to knock us off. Interesting times.

That's very respectful of you Taylor but I don't think that the Kiwi press is adopting the same approach:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/scotland-rugby-team/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501227&objectid=11355692

The comments I saw were from the players themselves. Don't worry...you'll see some nerves hitting out media over the next couple it days. The NZ coach factor is real and perhaps the missing ingredient for Scotland and Ireland all this time. At least that's the way they'd like to paint it.

I think there is enough evidence from the Argentina game and the fact that Glasgow are a formidable team at the moment to suggest that Scotland will put in an improved performance against NZ this time. I hope they dont let the game get away from them as they have in the past and they can remain competitive till the end. It would slightly annoy me if Scotland beat NZ before Ireland do but anything is possible.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

I think the battle starts before the whistle. It starts when Scotland see the AB's run onto the pitch and even more importantly, when they perform the haka. I'm not going to the game, but I hope the crowd give the AB's a bit more respect when it's performed than the English did on Saturday.

But that's the crowd only.

The players need to face up to it and challenge it themselves.

Any ideas?

Yes by far the best response in the Campese one. go to the other end of the pitch ad throw a few passes around.

Yet another good omen for Saturday, my Mum won 2 tickets to it today.
Something's afoot!

GunsGerms wrote:I think there is enough evidence from the Argentina game and the fact that Glasgow are a formidable team at the moment to suggest that Scotland will put in an improved performance against NZ this time. I hope they dont let the game get away from them as they have in the past and they can remain competitive till the end. It would slightly annoy me if Scotland beat NZ before Ireland do but anything is possible.

In hindsight, I'm definitely glad we played England before either Ireland or Scotland as we probably wouldn't have taken either anywhere near as seriously as England- our 'perceived' biggest foe of the 4. It's clear both sides were well prepared for both their opening matches and I think the Boks copped it instead of us with this years draw.

Thankfully, our eyes are now wide open for the next two...

TJ wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

I think the battle starts before the whistle. It starts when Scotland see the AB's run onto the pitch and even more importantly, when they perform the haka. I'm not going to the game, but I hope the crowd give the AB's a bit more respect when it's performed than the English did on Saturday.

But that's the crowd only.

The players need to face up to it and challenge it themselves.

Any ideas?

Yes  by far the best response in the Campese one.  go to the other end of the pitch ad throw a few passes around.

Or the scots could / should...............

Manky-Flanker wrote:Speaking about psychology, wonder how odd this week's game will be for Sean Maitland. Going up against NZ and his past team mates.  

And former coach?

Kiwi team announced today....rumours are desperate Dan will be back.

My girlfriend fiancé will be happy!

Taylorman wrote:

In hindsight, I'm definitely glad we played England before either Ireland or Scotland as we probably wouldn't have taken either anywhere near as seriously as England- our 'perceived' biggest foe of the 4. It's clear both sides were well prepared for both their opening matches and I think the Boks copped it instead of us with this years draw.

Thankfully, our eyes are now wide open for the next two...

Given Irelands performance v NZ last year and the clue that they are NH champions that may have been a little naive. Never understood why Kiwis are so in awe of England.

Probably just history guns, there will come a time when the first win arrives and then the floodgates may open (relatively speaking), and then there will be increased apprehension over and above the existing apprehension of having never lost.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Kiwi team announced today....rumours are desperate Dan will be back.

My girlfriend fiancé will be happy!

Congratulations (dont do it)

Looking forward to the Scotland game to see this rejuvenated side in action. Seems like it takes half a week to get over the game prior. Hopefully we'll start building up for it tomorrow. Will be a close game I reckon.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Kiwi team announced today....rumours are desperate Dan will be back.

My girlfriend fiancé will be happy!

My girlfriend fiancé ex will be happy!

Hope it is close and think it might be. I just really hope Scotland play smart rugby.

by Barclay's beard!

Can you imagine if we do beat the mighty blacks!!! We'll suddenly go into the 6n's with a sense of optimisim and you all know what happens we when we do that!!!

Whacky Races ambush? "Yes, Mutley - the wheels come off! Hee!! Hee!! Hee!!!"

RDW_Scotland wrote:Kiwi team announced today....rumours are desperate Dan will be back.

My girlfriend fiancé will be happy!

Parks?

Riskysports wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Kiwi team announced today....rumours are desperate Dan will be back.

My girlfriend fiancé will be happy!

Parks?

Parks is RDW's fiancé?

GLove39 wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Kiwi team announced today....rumours are desperate Dan will be back.

My girlfriend fiancé will be happy!

Parks?

Parks is RDW's fiancé?

All black team out a whooping 13 changes
All Blacks: (15-1) Ben Smith, Colin Slade, Malakai Fekitoa, Ryan Crotty, Charle Piutau, Dan Carter, TJ Perenara, Victor Vito, Sam Cane, Richie McCaw, Dominic Bird, Jeremy Thrush, Charlie Faumuina, James Parsons, Joe Moody. Replacements: Dane Coles, Wyatt Crockett, Ben Franks, Luke Romano, Liam Messam, Augustin Pulu, Sonny Bill Williams, Julian Savea.

You certainly could say they are not rating scotlands chances at all
This has to be our best chance to win for a long time. Come on Scotland

Man I love having Hansen as coach. Great to see he backs his whole squad all the time. Slade on the wing! Makes this match much more interesting now. This not so much about not respecting Scotland as much as backing his squad though it does appear a rather overboard approach.

So many newbies/ young guns.

This is going to be great. Whats missing in experience will be replaced by youth, energy and a massive bolt of enthusiasm.

If we lose, so be it, but at least we'll know how good our backups are without the bulk of the oldies.

That must be the least experienced tight 5 (or pack bar McCaw) we've fielded in the pro era surely..or even longer.?...cooool.

At first glance you`d think it was a NZ B side then think again 2 Locks,a 6 injured,Conrad
Smith in NZ.Then look at the bench first choice hooker,loosehead,wing,in the absence of
Nonu centre,and at 6.all available.

People have been screaming for Smith and Piatau to start in those positions a little surprised
Dan Carter starting.But expect Slade at 10 after half time and I`d be happy with him the full
80.

Add to that Luke Romano a regular starter pre injury easing his way back and 2 very
capable goal kickers.A dynamic 7 starting then expect McCaw back there before end
of match.

Crikey, that's different. Think most of us AB fans think the sun shines out of Hansen's backside but I hope he got this right. There's enough on the bench to bring some zip if things go south I suppose. Is Slade on the wing? Thats pushing the envelope alright.

McCaw and Carter playing is nuff respect, I suppose.

That said, there are definitely areas we can target. Slade v Seymour. Oh yessir.

Slade was brought in for Jane...literally now.. He has the pace as well, and is a tough character.

Sorry Graham - the OP has become marginally more Fancy Pants, but only functionally so I hope.

What an opportunity.

Don't get me wrong, if you're selcted for the AB squad, then you're undoubtedly excellent, but this selection may just even things up a wee bit.

Interesting that Scotland are 10/11 with a 25 points handicap.

when is Scotland team going to be announced? what is the weather forecast?
cheers

Colin Slade on the wing? Isn't he a fly half??

pleased for slade. He's a player a really rate. Wasn't selected but got his head down, played for the baa baas and showed such form that Hansen gave him a call and now he is starting on Saturday.

Anyhow, its trench warfare now so enough about the opposition. Lets see us put in a performance, a real performance. Result doesn't matter to me. I'd rather lose by 20 knowing we had a real go then limit ourselves to losing by 10.

Weather looks like a mix of rain and shine so hopefully that will slow NZ down a little.

Lets see what our set piece can do. It looked strong on the weekend. Lets put a marker out to everyone to say... we're still alive, we're still out there and we have talent.

whocares wrote:when is Scotland team going to be announced? what is the weather forecast?
cheers

1. Team announced this lunchtime.
2. It's Edinburgh in winter. So presumably it will be urinating down and bit parky.
3. No worries.

Incidentally, judging by the interviews with Maitland and Russell on the SRU website, it looks like this might be the first outing for our new red international kit.

thanks GC - Am not too convinced by the ABs tight 5 (specially the "poultry" 2nd row) but might be wrong - still loads of quality on their bench.
am excited by the game and reckcon Glasgow has a good chance to win it, shame they dont play at home

It's an interesting read. Here's my take. Hansen's got a difficult choice. It's the end of a long season and the last game (in case Wales) is always tricky. He's pretty much given his first squad a breather. They said after the Ireland game last year they were tired. Historically that is the game where we trip up.

It's a season to go before the world cup. With no June tests there's little opportunity to check on and develop up and comers (not something they'll do by choice against the Boks and Wallabies).

This is game when the AB's traditionally put out their junior squad members and test new combinations. It's a bit more extreme than normal but it's definitely part of a trend.

It is a fine line because Scotland on their day could beat this lineup. However, Hansen and Co hate losing. This team is picked to do the job. A couple of issues from an AB's fans perspective:
1. Scrum. They'll probably be underdone as a unit.
2. Lineout. Bird is tall but as a whole this lineout lacks height.
3. Backs. Size. No backs over 100kg. We normally have at least 2 runners capable of holding the ball in contact and breaking the advantage line.
4. I wonder whether we'll have much of an offloading game.

Obviously the ships being steered by McCaw and Carter so they should operate well. The Scots will probably have to throw much of the video session out the window as they may not be familiar with many of the players in these positions. The bench is pretty useful.