Scotland V New Zealand - November 15th

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Scotland v New Zealand

Date: Saturday, November 15
Venue: BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh
Kickoff: 17:30 local (GMT)
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant Referees: Johnny Lacey (Ireland), Stuart Berry (South Africa)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)

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Right this isn't one of your GC fancy pants matchday threads, I'm in charge this time.

Had originally considered calling it the 'Kiwi Krushing Kelebration' thread, but realized that'd be an inappropriate acronym...

Now onto the game, normally you'd expect to read about form / head to head here, but for reasons which I'll go onto none of that really matters because this is the year that we will finally beat the All Blacks!

Now what makes me so sure you ask, well quite simply, I've a cast iron, 100% scientific theory that proves that next weekend we will at long last neutralize New Zealand.  

2003 England win the Rugby World Cup - 3 years later they lose at Murrayfield
2007 South Africa win the Rugby World Cup - 3 years later they lose at Murrayfield
2011 New Zealand win the Rugby World Cup - 3 years later...  

Quite simply and to quote Tinie Tempah, it's "written in the stars".

Teams to be announced (not that it matters).

Scotland

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors); 25 caps
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors); 14 caps
13 Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors), 1 cap
12 Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors); 9 caps
11 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors); 11 caps
10 Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors); 3 caps
9 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Gloucester); 32 caps

1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby); 37 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby); 78 caps
3 Euan Murray (Glasgow Warriors); 61 caps
4 Richie Gray (Castres); 40 caps
5 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors); 6 caps
6 Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors); 8 caps
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish); 4 caps
8 Adam Ashe (Glasgow Warriors); 2 caps

16 Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors); 1 cap
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors); 4 caps
18 Geoff Cross (London Irish); 33 caps
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors); 9 caps
20 Johnnie Beattie (Castres); 32 caps
21 Chris Cusiter (Sale Sharks); 68 caps
22 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors); 16 caps
23 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors); 89 caps

New Zealand

15 Ben Smith
14 Colin Slade
13 Malakai Fekitoa
12 Ryan Crotty
11 Charle Piutau
10 Dan Carter
09 TJ Perenara

08 Victor Vito
07 Sam Cane
06 Richie McCaw
05 Dominic Bird
04 Jeremy Thrush
03 Charlie Faumuina
02 James Parsons
01 Joe Moody

16 Dane Coles
17 Wyatt Crockett
18 Ben Franks
19 Luke Romano
20 Liam Messam
21 Augustin Pulu
22 Sonny Bill Williams
23 Julian Savea.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Was at the match on Saturday and firstly the pre match lighting was sensational.

Secondly seeing the Kapa O Pango.... pretty special.

As for the match DC and NZ as a whole were pretty fragmented. However Scotland defended well and ran a superb lineout. I hope a lot of the Ford haters (myself included) can look at our lineout stat of 17 won 0 lost and 3 stolen over the last 2 games as a fantastic achievement.

Credit to the Gray brothers too, particularly Jonny -Blair Cowan said in an interview that they'd taken real ownership of the lineout over the last few weeks in training.

Apart from Richie landing facing the wrong way of course....

Was it a mediocre test match? I don't think so.

Weather wasn't terrible right? I think the problem for NZ was that they simply weren't expecting Scotland to put up a fight and where they had previously had made wholesale changes they got away with it.

In the end the match only really turned when they brought on their first team players SBW, Savea, Franks etc. I don't think they will give such allowances again.

So this is what gets me about the ratings.... his ratings for NZ team no.1 in the world was 5.5 ave. starting lineup and 5.75 subs... yet the team which unexpectedly took them close ranked 8 had a 4.93 rating with 3.5 on the bench. Surely it was the Scots who turned up and performed not NZ.

A little more belief and I think we would have got over the line. But pleased with the progress and also the players desires to give them back as much as they took.

Thought Poite was very poor mind. The penalising of the scrum feed was ridiculous.. its like arresting a hooker for soliciting in a w.hore house. Its almost like he got a call on the mic by the IRB....um, this isn't meant to happen Romain.
So many offsides against Scotland too... when I'm sorry but NZ were so quick off the line either they had linford like reactions and speed or they were offside much of the time.

Discipline was a little off. Nothing major but silly little penalties.

Also Lamont had a good game.... WTF?????

Haven't had the chance to chuck my two cents in but that was a nasty game to watch. Well done to Scotland for putting NZ under intense pressure, and NZ for withstanding it despite everyone including themselves knowing that they were playing like a pack of ****s.

Perenara's delivery was appalling. Passes everywhere except out in front of Carter's chest. DC was rusty enough without having to deal with slop like that. TJP also takes too long to box kick-and NZ sometimes are lazy with protecting the 9 when he kicks.

Again very disjointed between forwards and backs. Thrush put in a great shift but he is no Retallick in terms of passing the ball. That with Perenara's passing meant Scotland could creep up with two crap passes in the same backline move. It's no wonder NZ didn't get the best of ball and obviously it gave Seymour the chance to watch and anticipate McCaw's pass better.

Not enough cut and thrust in the midfield until SBW came on. Savea played a blinder though.

For the Scots I thought Ashe and the Grays played bloody well. They harassed and harried for the full 80 but they did seem out of gas passing the ball along the backline after 70. Sadly they didn't look like constructing a try but you can win a game off penalties and a poacher's special and they definitely gave us the heebie jeebies. I don't quite feel that Laidlaw's miss was crucial as NZ would have had more chances down the other end as they dominated territory at that stage.

Very impressed with Slade-him and SBW straightened up the backline and made it a lot more threatening and he kicked well and with composure. His development has been a pleasant surprise as I've always thought of him as just a nearly man but he's bulked up and come on in leaps and bounds. That kick in Brisbane will do wonders for him in future I think.

RDW_Scotland wrote:It's not as much the scores he gave the Scots, more the scathing comments that came with it!

He really doesn't like Sean Maitland!

I seem to recall other articles he's written in the past have been very scathing (rude) of Scotland and the players

I just don’t think he likes us all that much.

From 2012: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10845100

Scotsman reporting on him - http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/kiwi-writer-labels-scottish-players-as-cavemen-of-world-rugby-1-2615990


Actually he seems to dislike everyone, he’s had a pop at Wales, Ireland, Oz etc in the past as well.  Must be tough going through life hating everyone and everything.

yeah NZ 9 was dire. Firing it at Carters head all day.

NZ should worry about the lineout, Scotland are good at that but they were all over the place resorting to quick throws, front man Ibanez types etc by the end. They lost similar numbers to England

People should remember that the world cup is being held in these conditions. 12 months time in the UK. This is the sort of rugby to expect and the players accustomed/suited to it should be the ones given game time.

For instance in SA we see Pienaar playing well over Hougaard for the 9 jersey in these conditions if Du Preez is out. So even in the Highveld.. play Pienaar, get him set in with the 10. It will all help.

I don’t know how true this is (from a friend of a friend), but apparently they spoke to Ford and he was saying how much easier he is finding it with someone else calling the lineout, because apparently he was throwing and calling for Scotland.  Now I can’t say I’ve actually heard him call, but it’s not impossible he made the ‘call’ and nominated someone else within the lineout to actually shout it out.

Either way, with Johnny at International level & Gilchrist at club level he’s shown he’s actually very good.  Still can’t hook mind, but that aside I think the last two games have shown Ford in a really positive light, he’s great in the loose and been performing well in the lineout.

So credit where it’s due, I’ve been slightly critical of him in the past, but he’s really shown that he is worthy of a test jersey in the last two games and I really hope this continues, because he is an asset to the side when in form.

On the hooking front I noticed the kiwi hooker had his leg out before the ball was put in, so the ball was quickly hooked. The obvious advantage being that the opposition shouldn't push before the ball is in, so the lack of stability from the hooker won't be as important. I'm no front row expert, but is that something worth trying?

fa0019 wrote:yeah NZ 9 was dire. Firing it at Carters head all day.

NZ should worry about the lineout, Scotland are good at that but they were all over the place resorting to quick throws, front man Ibanez types etc by the end. They lost similar numbers to England

People should remember that the world cup is being held in these conditions. 12 months time in the UK. This is the sort of rugby to expect and the players accustomed/suited to it should be the ones given game time.

For instance in SA we see Pienaar playing well over Hougaard for the 9 jersey in these conditions if Du Preez is out. So even in the Highveld.. play Pienaar, get him set in with the 10. It will all help.

The lineout is a long ongoing issue for us. i think it's partly a lack of height, leading to limited options. The first choice back 5 is ok, if they are all fit. Against Scotland we had a new unit, as well as a new hooker, which lacked height. We normally struggle when injuries hit our locking stocks, especially if we don't play at least one tall loosie (e.g 2009).

RDW_Scotland wrote:On the hooking front I noticed the kiwi hooker had his leg out before the ball was put in, so the ball was quickly hooked. The obvious advantage being that the opposition shouldn't push before the ball is in, so the lack of stability from the hooker won't be as important. I'm no front row expert, but is that something worth trying?

A pre-emptive strike was pretty common back in the days when hookers hooked. Since it was more of a technical battle when raw power wasn't as important as striking against the head.

Since the advent of the scrum power game a hooker who doesn't have both feet planted cannot drive as effectively pre-emptive striking hasn't been common.

The fact that the Kiwis were bringing it back is a testemant to how well the new scrum laws are working and hooking in the scrum and the strategies attacked to that particular skill might make a comeback might improve the scrum beyond a test of strength.

You are 100% right though a hooker with his leg up poised to hook quickly will not be in a position of strength and it's probably up to one of the flankers to spot it and give the signal for the pack to try and disrupt him.

It's a fine line though because if you drive to early you run the risk of being pinged for driving before the ball goes in.

The more I think about it, the more I think this was a missed oppertunity! That NZ team were one of the worst I've seen in many a year. It could have been the game to get the monkey off the back and we'd no longer need to live with the lable of the team that's never beat the blacks!

I'm still raging at the reffereeing (or lack of) towards the blackness not helping matters but that's not something we could have had an impact on. I'm most dissapointed about our own penalty count! Had we kept that lower, we could (should) have won that game!

Nice picture of Tommy Seymour here*

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/scots-shouldn-t-be-happy-with-avoiding-a-beating-1-3606744

*incase they correct it, it's not him

RDW_Scotland wrote:On the hooking front I noticed the kiwi hooker had his leg out before the ball was put in, so the ball was quickly hooked. The obvious advantage being that the opposition shouldn't push before the ball is in, so the lack of stability from the hooker won't be as important. I'm no front row expert, but is that something worth trying?

I though that was illegal - but not 100%

On the reffing - it was so bad - even the Kiwis in the room were apologizing for the one sidedness - when is this even going to change?

A tough match, but ultimately we were undone by our own mistakes- I am actually in the camp of that was a poor performance from us and a step back to the bad old days of having ball and looking clueless and knocking on all over the place

I am not quite sure what game everyone else was watching - yes we defended well and showed passion - but we never looked like constructing a try and seemed to be headless with the ball most time

Sorry for being the party pooper - but that is how I feel

cakeordeath wrote:Nice picture of Tommy Seymour here*

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/scots-shouldn-t-be-happy-with-avoiding-a-beating-1-3606744

*incase they correct it, it's not him

Typical, and they wonder why they are losing readers....

Well ove just watched the game again, and I'm even more impressed by Rob Harleys performance. He was a absolute nuisance at every ruck he was at, and put in a massive shift his link play and handling has improved a lot too.

He's quickly becoming the cornerstone of the backrow, and makes the Brown omission less of a big deal.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Well ove just watched the game again, and I'm even more impressed by Rob Harleys performance. He was a absolute nuisance at every ruck he was at, and put in a massive shift his link play and handling has improved a lot too.

He's quickly becoming the cornerstone of the backrow, and makes the Brown omission less of a big deal.

Totally agree, he's getting better and better. Fair to say that Cowan is also improving with each game as well, offers more than Fusaro.

RDW_Scotland wrote:On the hooking front I noticed the kiwi hooker had his leg out before the ball was put in, so the ball was quickly hooked. The obvious advantage being that the opposition shouldn't push before the ball is in, so the lack of stability from the hooker won't be as important. I'm no front row expert, but is that something worth trying?

I'm probably way wide of the mark, but isn't that a penalty? Somewhat like putting the ball in straight: you are not meant to raise your foot before the ball goes in because this prevents a fair contest.
I've just turned into Brian Moore.

Maybe refs are so used to not hooking that they've all forgotten about that rule...

Either way, the ABs were doing it!

Who was the ref? Take note and repeat as desired when he refs

Risky - havi9ng followed Scotland for many decades I am delighted - not with the result but with the fact we played with skill and heart. We had a real go at them, didn't sit back and try to defend all game but took the game to them. Some really good players and a real team performance. Thats what was heartening. Its wasn't the ritual slaughter we have become accustomed to facing the all blacks

The Gray brothers and Harley both got into Blood and Mud Poopie and good ratings. Which is not unusual for a Scottish player. However this time it was under the good section.

TJ wrote:Risky - havi9ng followed Scotland for many decades I am delighted - not with the result but with the fact we played with skill and heart.  We had a real go at them, didn't sit back and try to defend all game but took the game to them.   Some really good players and a real team performance.  Thats what was heartening.  Its wasn't the ritual slaughter we have become accustomed to facing the all blacks

heart yes, skill less so - we knocked on and did not create anything really. That was a very dis-organised and poor NZ side and we did not look like unlocking them

I am all for hoping the upward curve but over the decades I have seen for too many passionate losses with dropping the ball every 5 mins to say we have a long way to go

I also agree we have some good players and I hope they will grow into a world class team -- but I have been bitten once too often with false dawns to fall for it again -

Riskysports wrote:

TJ wrote:Risky - havi9ng followed Scotland for many decades I am delighted - not with the result but with the fact we played with skill and heart.  We had a real go at them, didn't sit back and try to defend all game but took the game to them.   Some really good players and a real team performance.  Thats what was heartening.  Its wasn't the ritual slaughter we have become accustomed to facing the all blacks

heart yes, skill less so - we knocked on and did not create anything really. That was a very dis-organised and poor NZ side and we did not look like unlocking them

I am all for hoping the upward curve but over the decades I have seen for too many passionate losses with dropping the ball every 5 mins to say we have a long way to go

I also agree we have some good players and I hope they will grow into a world class team  -- but I have been bitten once too often with false dawns to fall for it again -

Sean Lamont is hardley famed for unlocking defences. If it can't be turned into roadkill then Seany Boy seems to run out of ideas.

Things might have been different had Bennet stayed on.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

TJ wrote:Risky - havi9ng followed Scotland for many decades I am delighted - not with the result but with the fact we played with skill and heart.  We had a real go at them, didn't sit back and try to defend all game but took the game to them.   Some really good players and a real team performance.  Thats what was heartening.  Its wasn't the ritual slaughter we have become accustomed to facing the all blacks

heart yes, skill less so - we knocked on and did not create anything really. That was a very dis-organised and poor NZ side and we did not look like unlocking them

I am all for hoping the upward curve but over the decades I have seen for too many passionate losses with dropping the ball every 5 mins to say we have a long way to go

I also agree we have some good players and I hope they will grow into a world class team  -- but I have been bitten once too often with false dawns to fall for it again -

Sean Lamont is hardley famed for unlocking defences. If it can't be turned into roadkill then Seany Boy seems to run out of ideas.

Things might have been different had Bennet stayed on.

I think it would be unfair to lay the blame for out lack of creativity on Shlong. I actually thought he played OK when he came on, he isn't the future - but he offers a good alternative now that Scott (12) and Bennett are crocked.

I understand what Risky is saying, we did produce too many unforced errors and our back line didn't take on much attacking shape. Most of the ground made stemmed from forwards running nice angles of short balls from 9 or from another forward linking play - see Mark Bennett's try that could have been in the Argie test.

The next stage that I hope to see from this team is a bit more fluidity in our first and second phase attack, with Russell getting more experience and Scott on his way back I think we should see this during the 6Nations.

Christ on a bendy bus, when was the last time Scotland could call upon ball players like Russell, Scott and Hogg.

I always hate being the voice of doom (ok, I love it)  and I truly do want us to become the side that teams fear - but so far there is very little that has shown me that we have turned that corner yet

I still remember the hysterical optimism when

Slong first broke onto the scene
Tim McVissor was the savior of our game
Rickie Gray first started
Hogg stated (then failed to push on)
NDL started
Murray had a good game against SA
Laidlaw was 10
Laidlaw was 9
We have a backline that would be the envy of the 6 nations (then failed to score many tries)

Now we have the brothers Gray
A young unproved backrow
A new 10 showing some promise - but was quite poor in the NZ game
A couple of good centres (that are crocked)
A more settle back 3 - but still inconsistent

I have learnt not to start counting the wins before we have more than one good game - and so far - that is all we have had

Lets see how we do in the 6 nations and then we will truly know where we are

Until then I am going to remain grumpy :-)

6N will I feel be strange this (next!) year.  
I'm not so certain the conclusion of it will be a useful marker for where any of those teams truly are.  It might be a good marker for showing those teams which player is definitiely in the mix for the WC and who is Out, Out, Out! - but I think there might be a good bit of mixing and risking games to better establish intentions for the WC.

Will sides not try so much?  No, I'm not saying that.  But I do think sides will have different priorities, as I think its natural to assume all sides will use the 6Ns to some extent as a testing ground.

Riskysports wrote:I always hate being the voice of doom (ok, I love it)  and I truly do want us to become the side that teams fear - but so far there is very little that has shown me that we have turned that corner yet

I still remember the hysterical optimism when

Slong first broke onto the scene
Tim McVissor was the savior of our game
Rickie Gray first started
Hogg stated (then failed to push on)
NDL started
Murray had a good game against SA
Laidlaw was 10
Laidlaw was 9
We have a backline that would be the envy of the 6 nations (then failed to score many tries)

Now we have the brothers Gray
A young unproved backrow
A new 10 showing some promise - but was quite poor in the NZ game
A couple of good centres (that are crocked)
A more settle back 3 - but still inconsistent

I have learnt not to start counting the wins before we have more than one good game - and so far - that is all we have had

Lets see how we do in the 6 nations and then we will truly know where we are

Until then I am going to remain grumpy :-)

Bit harsh Risky is it no?

I thought Russell had quite a solid game and some of his tackles were outstanding...especially in the first ten minutes when he dumped that Kiwi 2nd row (I think) back on his erchie. Couple of good show and go breaks and passing was fine. Couple of stray kicks but another 10 or so caps and we could have the makings of a fantastic stand off.

How are our back three inconsistent?