What an absolutely pathetic end to the Welsh regional season

First topic message reminder :

Well, the title says it all really. What a pathetic, embarrassing finish to the PRO12 it was for the Welsh regions. I am livid, as a Welsh rugby fan I am bouncing, and it just goes to show how right I am when I talk about the attitudes towards the game that the regions take. What does it matter to the regions that they got beaten on the weekend ? Nothing, that's what, they do not have to worry.

Ospreys knew what they needed to do and the were shamed in their own back yard. If I were a paying customer on Saturday I would have been demanding my money back. Scarlets were the same, they just gave up in the second half, and the less said about Dragons the better. Where was the pride ? 

I live in hope that next season will be better, Welsh domestic rugby is in a dark place at the moment, how any fans of the regions can come on here and defend their teams showing over this season is beyond me. No doubt I will get attacked from every quarter on here by the likes of Risca, Stone motif, mikey dragon, PhillBB, Scarletspiderman, but how can they argue ? It's no wonder that the amount of fans going to watch our regions are not as good as elsewhere, it's because of the crap being served up infront of them week in week out, who would want to keep paying for it ?

But what does it matter, the regions will still get the same funding next year, they will still get the same money from Europe, nothing will change for them, so why should they change ?

marty2086 wrote:
You mean that time I specifically said I couldn't find it

Yet we still await the link

The debate wasn't about rugby in general it was specifically about Heaslip so his 2014 contract was relevant yet you would like it not to be to hide the fact you were wrong and refuse to admit it. This is why you tried to broaden things to the whole sport

The debate was about private involvement in Irish rugby so was not specifically about Heaslip. You can't even get that right.

Link?

No 7&1/2 wrote:marty actually said 'You mean when I said what are you talking about there is nothing there?'.

That means he didn't find a link.

Yet Martyn did find the details of my point, proving he did find a link.

See? It's that simple.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Link?

Quite right. The one Martyn found where he noted the restaurant involvement was before the non-sequitur he raised of Heaslip's 2014 contract.

We got there. Well done.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
You mean that time I specifically said I couldn't find it

Yet we still await the link

The debate wasn't about rugby in general it was specifically about Heaslip so his 2014 contract was relevant yet you would like it not to be to hide the fact you were wrong and refuse to admit it. This is why you tried to broaden things to the whole sport

The debate was about private involvement in Irish rugby so was not specifically about Heaslip. You can't even get that right.

Yet you quoted him and Jo'burger to prove your point then couldn't elaborate and told me to go find your proof which I couldn't despite you claiming I did

In fact I provided evidence that contradicted your claim

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Link?

Quite right. The one Martyn found where he noted the restaurant involvement was before the non-sequitur he raised of Heaslip's 2014 contract.

We got there. Well done.

He said he couldn't find one. Are you not reading and understanding points?

marty2086 wrote:
Yet you quoted him and Jo'burger to prove your point then couldn't elaborate and told me to go find your proof which I couldn't despite you claiming I did

In fact I provided evidence that contradicted your claim

I quoted him (and others, from memory) to show how private finance is already in the Irish game.

You could find proof because you noted the involvement in setting up the restaurant.

You provided no evidence that contradicted my claim. That's a blatant fib. Silly boy, Martyn.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
He said he couldn't find one. Are you not reading and understanding points?

He claimed he couldn't find one and then went on to discuss the details. See?

Yes, so you did understand that there wasn't a link found. So, you want to post it?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes, so you did understand that there wasn't a link found. So, you want to post it?

No, Martyn clearly found the information as he went on to discuss it.

Google Heaslip Jo'burger.

There are many links. It's very easy to do.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Yet you quoted him and Jo'burger to prove your point then couldn't elaborate and told me to go find your proof which I couldn't despite you claiming I did

In fact I provided evidence that contradicted your claim

I quoted him (and others, from memory) to show how private finance is already in the Irish game.

You could find proof because you noted the involvement in setting up the restaurant.

You provided no evidence that contradicted my claim. That's a blatant fib. Silly boy, Martyn.

No you said David Walsh, Jo'burger, Heaslip and Niall Woods go look it up that's hardly quoting someone

I provided nothing except that Heaslips investments and image rights were not part of his contract until 2014, 2 years after his investment which is more than you provided

So again, you don't have a link. Very hypocritical of you Phil.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
He said he couldn't find one. Are you not reading and understanding points?

He claimed he couldn't find one and then went on to discuss the details. See?

I mentioned the name of the restaurant and the year he invested, one I knew and one I found but through a source that in no way related to anything you mentioned and if you provided it the world could see yet you still avoid, I wonder why

marty2086 wrote:

No you said David Walsh, Jo'burger, Heaslip and Niall Woods go look it up that's hardly quoting someone

I provided nothing except that Heaslips investments and image rights were not part of his contract until 2014, 2 years after his investment which is more than you provided

Jo'Burger have been involved with Heaslip since at least 2012.

Niall Woods http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-how-the-irish-provinces-have-hit-a-brick-wall-1.2647086

marty2086 wrote:

I mentioned the name of the restaurant and the year he invested, one I knew and one I found but through a source that in no way related to anything you mentioned and if you provided it the world could see yet you still avoid, I wonder why

'One I found through a source'.

Yes, that source being Google.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So again, you don't have a link. Very hypocritical of you Phil.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/joburger-plans-expansion-with-four-new-restaurants-26886827.html

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No you said David Walsh, Jo'burger, Heaslip and Niall Woods go look it up that's hardly quoting someone

I provided nothing except that Heaslips investments and image rights were not part of his contract until 2014, 2 years after his investment which is more than you provided

Jo'Burger have been involved with Heaslip since at least 2012.

Niall Woods http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-how-the-irish-provinces-have-hit-a-brick-wall-1.2647086

Which I told you

That link sheds no further light on it either, you are taking 2 and 2 and getting 5

You’d have to say private investment is the only way they’re going to be able to. Leinster have started it, to a certain degree, with the likes of Jamie, Seánie and Johnny and, in effect, extra sponsorship, or else the union loosen their control like the New Zealand union did, and permit part ownership, and give 20 per cent of a franchise to a private investor. I can’t see the IRFU handing over any level of control, but that’s the risk if you want to compete. It may get to the stage in four or five years where they might not have an option

Jo'burger is separate to what this is talking about, it is part of Heaslips own portfolio as there are actually a number of investments he has outside rugby. Private investment was only adopted by the IRFU in 2014

marty2086 wrote:Private investment was only adopted by the IRFU in 2014

Martyn, I knew that you were naive but I didn't think that you were that naive.

marty2086 wrote:

Which I told you

No, you didn't.

If you say so Phil, nothing to do with you being wrong and not being able to admit it, what a child

marty2086 wrote:If you say so Phil, nothing to do with you being wrong and not being able to admit it, what a child

^ Multi purpose post. Meets perfect definition of a) irony & b) lack of self awareness ^

This thread gets more Daliesque by the day....

Why does it matter if Heaslip, or any other player, has been helped in setting up a business? It makes good sense as a back up to a career than can be suddenly cut short.

If Phil is implying that the IRFU/Provinces are setting up players in business, as a means of not paying them directly, then that doesn't make sense. Why would they when there is no salary cap?

Thats far to deep for our PhillBB Munch

Guys have been helped by unions and clubs over many years.

Munchkin wrote:Why does it matter if Heaslip, or any other player, has been helped in setting up a business? It makes good sense as a back up to a career than can be suddenly cut short.

If Phil is implying that the IRFU/Provinces are setting up players in business, as a means of not paying them directly, then that doesn't make sense. Why would they when there is no salary cap?

I'm not implying that.

And, poor Allty, I mentioned the same thing to Martyn about this having gone on for years. I even gave him Winterbottom as a reference point.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Why does it matter if Heaslip, or any other player, has been helped in setting up a business? It makes good sense as a back up to a career than can be suddenly cut short.

If Phil is implying that the IRFU/Provinces are setting up players in business, as a means of not paying them directly, then that doesn't make sense. Why would they when there is no salary cap?

I'm not implying that.

And, poor Allty, I mentioned the same thing to Martyn about this having gone on for years. I even gave him Winterbottom as a reference point.

Your original point was about the IRFU and then Heaslip then it became about the sport, trying to shift the goalposts to avoid saying you got it wrong

marty2086 wrote:
Your original point was about the IRFU and then Heaslip then it became about the sport, trying to shift the goalposts to avoid saying you got it wrong

I didn't get anything wrong, as you've been unable to prove. What is clear is, yet again, you were incapable of following basic logic and basic language.

Private influence in rugby has been there since Day One. In Ireland it is growing and, as folk like Woods note, it is required, necessary and likely to come with more control.

That's the point. You can't disagree with it. It is all factual.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Your original point was about the IRFU and then Heaslip then it became about the sport, trying to shift the goalposts to avoid saying you got it wrong

I didn't get anything wrong, as you've been unable to prove. What is clear is, yet again, you were incapable of following basic logic and basic language.

Private influence in rugby has been there since Day One. In Ireland it is growing and, as folk like Woods note, it is required, necessary and likely to come with more control.

That's the point. You can't disagree with it. It is all factual.

Why would I disagree with it?

You however seem unclear on when it came into Irish rugby

God, when you think about it...if Irish rugby is this unsuccessful using an old blazer system that is outdated and not fit for purpose in this new swish age of Private oil barons, who take up the strain and give bucket loads of largesse to their spanking new teams - just coz they have loads of working class heart, innit

.... - if we're so unsuccessful now then how unsuccessful might we be in the future if we enter the 21st century of Stockmarket Rugby and merge our ancient system smoothly with the new one.

The Provinces' record prove that the time is up on ye olde ways.  It probably is better that we move over to tickle the flash silk-suit working class boys.

marty2086 wrote:
Why would I disagree with it?

You however seem unclear on when it came into Irish rugby

You obviously disagree with him else you wouldn't keep trying to 'prove', but fail to do so, me wrong.

It would have come into Irish rugby in about 1874.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Why does it matter if Heaslip, or any other player, has been helped in setting up a business? It makes good sense as a back up to a career than can be suddenly cut short.

If Phil is implying that the IRFU/Provinces are setting up players in business, as a means of not paying them directly, then that doesn't make sense. Why would they when there is no salary cap?

I'm not implying that.

And, poor Allty, I mentioned the same thing to Martyn about this having gone on for years. I even gave him Winterbottom as a reference point.

The thing is though that Heaslip and most international rugby players nowadays wouldn't need any help setting up a business because they have plenty of money to do it between themselves.

Mick O'Driscoll & Ronan O'Gara own a pub in Cork. Jerry Flannery owns a pub in Limerick (bought it in 2006), Gordon D'Arcy has an interest with some schoolfriends in a pub, Kearneys x 2, Heaslip & SOB own a pub. POC, Quinlan & ROG have some sort of a wine importing business.

Worth noting that Paul O'Connell lost money through some investments he had through Pa Whelan (one of the leading lights of the IRFU)!

Sin é wrote:

The thing is though that Heaslip and most international rugby players nowadays wouldn't need any help setting up a business because they have plenty of money to do it between themselves.

Yes, you only need money to set up a business. No need for expertise, coaching, assistance, experience, contacts.

Just money.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The thing is though that Heaslip and most international rugby players nowadays wouldn't need any help setting up a business because they have plenty of money to do it between themselves.

Yes, you only need money to set up a business. No need for expertise, coaching, assistance, experience, contacts.

Just money.

Well, Rob Kearney has an MBA, Jerry Flannery & Gordon D'Arcy have Economics degrees, Ronan O'Gara has Business degree. Most of the Leinster players would have come through private school education so would have plenty of contacts themselves. Similarly with Ulster & Cork players. Only Limerick players would not come from private school background and might be short of contacts.

Sin é wrote:

Well, Rob Kearney has an MBA, Jerry Flannery & Gordon D'Arcy have Economics degrees, Ronan O'Gara has Business degree. Most of the Leinster players would have come through private school education so would have plenty of contacts themselves. Similarly with Ulster & Cork players. Only Limerick players would not come from private school background and might be short of contacts.

And none met through rugby.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Well, Rob Kearney has an MBA, Jerry Flannery & Gordon D'Arcy have Economics degrees, Ronan O'Gara has Business degree. Most of the Leinster players would have come through private school education so would have plenty of contacts themselves. Similarly with Ulster & Cork players. Only Limerick players would not come from private school background and might be short of contacts.

And none met through rugby.

Is that a statement?

Gordan D'Arcy's father was a bank manager, so would have plenty of contacts and advice. GD'A bought his interest in the pub with a group of friends from school, Clongowes which would have a fairly extensive network itself I'd imagine. People like Michael O'Leary of Ryanair who also went to school in Clongowes have more interest in horses than in rugby.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Why would I disagree with it?

You however seem unclear on when it came into Irish rugby

You obviously disagree with him else you wouldn't keep trying to 'prove', but fail to do so, me wrong.

It would have come into Irish rugby in about 1874.

Considering you keep telling lies regarding me I challenge you

So private investment to keep professional players has been in the IRFU since 1874 despite it only being formed in 1879 and professionalism being introduced in 95?

They really were ahead of their time

Sin é wrote:
Is that a statement?

No, it's a completely facetious statement.

marty2086 wrote:

Considering you keep telling lies regarding me I challenge you

So private investment to keep professional players has been in the IRFU since 1874 despite it only being formed in 1879 and professionalism being introduced in 95?

They really were ahead of their time

I haven't told a lie.

From 1874 there were two Unions, Martyn.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Considering you keep telling lies regarding me I challenge you

So private investment to keep professional players has been in the IRFU since 1874 despite it only being formed in 1879 and professionalism being introduced in 95?

They really were ahead of their time

I haven't told a lie.

From 1874 there were two Unions, Martyn.

You've told plenty the most recent being I found the article you alluded to and still haven't produced

And yes two unions in 1874 neither of them were the IRFU which only came into existence in 1879

marty2086 wrote:
You've told plenty the most recent being I found the article you alluded to and still haven't produced

And yes two unions in 1874 neither of them were the IRFU which only came into existence in 1879

I don't need to produce a single article linking Heaslip to Jo'burger as you, yourself, noted they existed.

Just a rebrand in 1879.

Although, in fairness, I should have written 1854.

Yes Jamie Heaslip and Jo'burger exist but you do need to produce the article linking the IRFU to his investment in it

Not a rebrand a merger

Why are you all discussing Heaslip & Jo'burger?

Heaslip's restaurant is called Bear which he co-owns with Joe Macken of Jo'burger fame. He is not a director of Jo'burger.

Sin é wrote:Why are you all discussing Heaslip & Jo'burger?

Heaslip's restaurant is called Bear which he co-owns with Joe Macken of Jo'burger fame. He is not a director of Jo'burger.

It comes under the Jo'burger banner if Im not mistaken though

I've been trying to get Phil to clarify the point hes actually tried to make about it all but as yet hes not been too forthcoming, deciding to keep talking about other things to try and make it look like its all relevant and he was right

He doesn't have an interest in the Jo'burger Group though, just in Bear Restaurant.

The Jo Burger group operates six restaurants in Dublin: three Jo’Burger outlets, Crackbird, Skinflint, with Irish and Leinster player Jamie Heaslip having a share in the group’s Bear restaurant.

Company director John Roberts said yesterday the recovery in the economy is beginning to filter through to the group “and the last 12 weeks have been really good”.

Mr Roberts said Jamie Heaslip “takes a great interest” in the fortunes of Bear restaurant.

“Jamie is a very busy man, but he is very interested in what is going on at Bear.”

Phil is good at confusing things alright and then running off

marty2086 wrote:Yes Jamie Heaslip and Jo'burger exist but you do need to produce the article linking the IRFU to his investment in it

Not a rebrand a merger

Why would I link the IRFU to it?

Sin é wrote:He doesn't have an interest in the Jo'burger Group though, just in Bear Restaurant.

I didn't claim he did.

marty2086 wrote:
I've been trying to get Phil to clarify the point hes actually tried to make about it all but as yet hes not been too forthcoming, deciding to keep talking about other things to try and make it look like its all relevant and he was right

I've explained my point perfectly a number of times. Sadly, for you, it disproves your puppy-like error strewn interpretation of it.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
I've been trying to get Phil to clarify the point hes actually tried to make about it all but as yet hes not been too forthcoming, deciding to keep talking about other things to try and make it look like its all relevant and he was right

I've explained my point perfectly a number of times. Sadly, for you, it disproves your puppy-like error strewn interpretation of it.

No your point was David Walsh, Joburger, Heaslip Google it

As yet you have yet to explain, you seem to be indicate the IRFU set the venture up for him but never clarified that, you have at different points that private investment has been around for ever in rugby and that the IRFU would have had since apparently before it was found and well before professionalism

So your explanation as you call it is very scattered and you seem to repeatedly avoid addressing your original post and providing both clarity and backup to it

So while you call it a puppy-like error strewn interpretation, the grownups call it avoidance

marty2086 wrote:
No your point was David Walsh, Joburger, Heaslip Google it

As yet you have yet to explain, you seem to be indicate the IRFU set the venture up for him but never clarified that, you have at different points that private investment has been around for ever in rugby and that the IRFU would have had since apparently before it was found and well before professionalism

So your explanation as you call it is very scattered and you seem to repeatedly avoid addressing your original post and providing both clarity and backup to it

So while you call it a puppy-like error strewn interpretation, the grownups call it avoidance

Here we go again with the "you seem to be indicate", which is just code for "my complete misinterpretation is".

My explanation is perfect for the point I made. That you cannot understand the point either before or after the explanation is not my fault.

Grown ups call you stupid for not understanding. I cannot be accused of avoiding a point I've made more than once and explained more than once. The issue is solely with your ability to understand it because "you seem to be indicate" actually means "my complete misinterpretation is".

Maybe a way forward is for you to seek clarification before you jump in with your childlike approach?

Am I right in thinking that this dispute started on a different thread?