Clermont V Leinster next Sunday

First topic message reminder :

Immovable object meets unstoppable force.

Leinster unbeaten in Europe since their last visit here exactly 2 years ago. Clermont now have a 50 game unbeaten home run in all comps, stretching back over 3 years.

Expect thunder, lightning, and balls to the wall Rugby action.

Clermont clear favourites, but Leinster will not let it go easy.

Leinster need the win as Clermont are 2 points ahead going in.

Leinster with full pack and a possible edge in the back row. Clermont have the edge most other places especially the backs where Leinster have a lot of injuries.

Watch this space……

Leinster

15: Ian Madigan
14: Fergus McFadden
13: Gordon D'Arcy
12: Andrew Goodman
11: Isa Nacewa
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Isaac Boss

1: Cian Healy
2: Sean Cronin
3: Mike Ross
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Damian Browne
6: Kevin McLaughlin
7: Sean O'Brien
8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Richardt Strauss
17: Jack McGrath
18: Michael Bent
19: Devin Toner
20: Shane Jennings
21: Eoin Reddan
22: Fionn Carr
23: Andrew Conway

ASM CLERMONT AUVERGNE

15 Lee Byrne
14 Sitiveni Sivivatu
13 Aurélien Rougerie CAPTAIN
12 Wesley Fofana
11 Napolioni Nalaga,
10 Brock James
9 Morgan Parra

1 Vincent Debaty
2 Benjamin Kayser
3 Davit Zirakashvili
4 Jamie Cudmore
5 Nathan Hines
6 Julien Bonnaire
7 Alexandre Lapandry
8 Damien Chouly

REPLACEMENTS:

16 Ti’i Paulo
17 Raphael Chaume
18 Daniel Kotze
19 Julien Pierre
20 Julien Bardy
21 Ludovic Radosavljevic
22 David Skrela
23 Regan King

SecretFly wrote:Strauss seems a tad over-eager to impress since getting the Ireland shirt. He should realise he doesn't have to do anything extra, just play his normal game. He needs to calm down now after the heady AI season.

I have to say I think Strauss's lineout throwing today showed why Best is still number 1.

Scrum performance of the weekend?

a) Ulster v Northampton
b) Munster v Saracens
C) Leinster v Clermont
D) Connacht v Biarritz

Whats this new feature showing people online?

Hmmm tough choice.

a) Tiny and Mujati aren't the force they used to be
b) Gill is good but Stevens... Still not a bad effort
c) Debaty couldn't bind to save his life. Still massive hit against an awesome pack
d) Biarritz are huge and Connacht missing big numbers in the scrum

I'd plump for Connacht, followed by Leinster then Munster and Ulster as we already know what those two packs can do!

Artful_Dodger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Strauss seems a tad over-eager to impress since getting the Ireland shirt. He should realise he doesn't have to do anything extra, just play his normal game. He needs to calm down now after the heady AI season.

I have to say I think Strauss's lineout throwing today showed why Best is still number 1.

Because he had 1 bad game? He played brilliantly in the AI's.

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Hmmm tough choice.

a) Tiny and Mujati aren't the force they used to be
b) Gill is good but Stevens... Still not a bad effort
c) Debaty couldn't bind to save his life. Still massive hit against an awesome pack
d) Biarritz are huge and Connacht missing big numbers in the scrum

I'd plump for Connacht, followed by Leinster then Munster and Ulster as we already know what those two packs can do!

I still can't believe he wasn't even penalised once, surely the crowd factor, remember Ulster last year.

That said Strauss cost Leinster an eventual win, 2 lineouts lost on the opponents 22 (one 5m out) is unforgivable at this level.

VinceWLB wrote:

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Hmmm tough choice.

a) Tiny and Mujati aren't the force they used to be
b) Gill is good but Stevens... Still not a bad effort
c) Debaty couldn't bind to save his life. Still massive hit against an awesome pack
d) Biarritz are huge and Connacht missing big numbers in the scrum

I'd plump for Connacht, followed by Leinster then Munster and Ulster as we already know what those two packs can do!

I still can't believe he wasn't even penalised once, surely the crowd factor, remember Ulster last year.

That said Strauss cost Leinster an eventual win, 2 lineouts lost on the opponents 22 (one 5m out) is unforgivable at this level.

Look at the first scrum. Debaty clearly losses his bind and he gives a pen against ross. Those 3 points have cost us dear.

Wow,if you had offered me that result before the game I'd have bitten your hand off but I'm actually disappointed we didn't at least get a draw there.

That's the first performance this season that has really got me thinking we can challenge for the Cup again this year.Clermont still look like they can choke under pressure so maybe the Scarlets can pull off a shock.

We still have a great chance of finishing as a best runner up thanks to to Ulster and Connacht,I wouldn't mind getting Toulon if that happened,I'd want to avoid Ulster,Clermont and Quins although I'd be far less fearful of Clermont after today.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:Hmmm tough choice.

a) Tiny and Mujati aren't the force they used to be
b) Gill is good but Stevens... Still not a bad effort
c) Debaty couldn't bind to save his life. Still massive hit against an awesome pack
d) Biarritz are huge and Connacht missing big numbers in the scrum

I'd plump for Connacht, followed by Leinster then Munster and Ulster as we already know what those two packs can do!

I still can't believe he wasn't even penalised once, surely the crowd factor, remember Ulster last year.

That said Strauss cost Leinster an eventual win, 2 lineouts lost on the opponents 22 (one 5m out) is unforgivable at this level.

Look at the first scrum. Debaty clearly losses his bind and he gives a pen against ross. Those 3 points have cost us dear.

I have seen everything with Debaty, losing bind, hand on the floor, poping out... Ross clearly owned him.
Owens is clearly not a good ref at scrumtime and it showed again.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Wow,if you had offered me that result before the game I'd have bitten your hand off but I'm actually disappointed we didn't at least get a draw there.

That's the first performance this season that has really got me thinking we can challenge for the Cup again this year.Clermont still look like they can choke under pressure so maybe the Scarlets can pull off a shock.

We still have a great chance of finishing as a best runner up thanks to to Ulster and Connacht,I wouldn't mind getting Toulon if that happened,I'd want to avoid Ulster,Clermont and Quins although I'd be far less fearful of Clermont after today.

How bad were both Nalanga and Sivivatu today? Also McFadden answered all his critics today, he was outstanding. My MOTM

How did Bonnaire get it? His name was mentioned like twice during the game..

Yeah McFadden really stepped up today,Goodman and Boss were excellent too and the pack were phenomenal.Every forward except Strauss did a top class job,just a pity his throwing deserted him in such a crucial game.

I was also very impressed with the coaching team,they formulated a fantastic gameplan in both attack and defense.This was a game we really should have won and while I'm disappointed we lost at least I know the team still have the hunger and ability to bring the big performances when they're needed.

Nigel Owens loves Leinster, he is so one eyed when reffing them.

viewtothegym wrote:Nigel Owens loves Leinster, he is so one eyed when reffing them.

Your kidding..right?

I'd say Toners days are numbered too. Theres no use being 6ft 11 if you don't make use of the height.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Nigel Owens loves Leinster, he is so one eyed when reffing them.

Your kidding..right?

Stop nibbling at bait that's about as fresh as a New Year's Eve hang n curly cheese toasted sandwich.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Nigel Owens loves Leinster, he is so one eyed when reffing them.

Your kidding..right?

Nope.
First let me say well done Clermont on the win and well done Leinster a LBP away from home and did a lot of things right.
But now to Owens, the guy gives every 50/50 decision to Leinster and did not allow Clermont to assert any pace into the game, He threatened Leinster with a yellow in the first half ,but that never came even thou they lay all over and held onto Clermont ball in their own 22 and that last half hour i don't think Leinster entered one ruck straight or on their feet, just saying mate.

profitius wrote:I'd say Toners days are numbered too. Theres no use being 6ft 11 if you don't make use of the height.

Yeah i haven't seen him challenging for a lineout once, only one good carry i think. On the other hand Cullen and Browne had a very good game.

Anyway, well done to Clermont, as Rodders says. They're a slick side who seem to always have another gear to push you off them when they get squeezed. The sign of a really potent side. But they needed those gears today and I think they'd have been expecting a bigger return in game points amassed from that game than they got, if they were honest.

I know, too, some think that overall that was a pretty strong showing from Leinster, given the location and their continuing iffy form to date, but I actually felt it was quite nervy from them, ...a lot of tension, making their job harder than it might have been.

Yes, it was probably to be expected given the opposition; and it can also be due to certain players not being available as workload and expectancy suddenly lies on players who haven't usually shouldered it to such an extent. I'm not saying they didn't play well but I am saying that wasn't Leinster playing with total belief in themselves at HEC level.
I think a good few of them were actually fearful that they were going to be embarrassed today - that losing heavily was certainly a possibility (going on season form) and were probably a little shocked that nope - you're in with a real chance here actually! They didn't seem prepared to push on if that was the scenario that met them. There wasn't a flat-out fever mood there tonight.

Schmidt knows his rugby and I'm impressed by how he managed his troops to give his team a fighting chance but I'm sure he's also a long range thinker. I'll just say it didn't feel like the Leinster players felt that game was their defining 'die out there or end your challenge' game.

A good sign though to get a close result and a bonus point playing less-than-confident rugby against Clermont at home. Whatever this season brings, it's still good signs for the future with Leinster

Glad to see a Welsh ref getting in on the deal of influencing games negatively.

Welcome Nigel.... the place is pretty full with English and Irish and Scottish and French and Aussie and South African etc refs already here. But let me take these newspapers off this chair. There you go. Sit down, and your cucumber sandwich is on its way.

Wasn't too impressed with Clermonts back play- a lot of fairly lateral east to west rugby, very little for Leinster to think about and no really incisive lines being cut. And then when they went direct it was always crash ball up the middle, Leinster love when the ball goes to ground. They needed more guys on the shoulder of Fofana.

Don't think Clermont played anywhere near as well as they can but they'll be happy that if they take a LBP next week they are in control of the pool.

Hmmm. There were a bunch of neutrals in the pub watching this game. Owens didn't ruin the game, if anything he was lenient as we felt Leinster would cop a yellow for blatantly killing the ball when Clermont were pressing at the end.

Healy was more guilty of not binding in the scrum than Debaty. Also both teams had bodies on the wrong side of the ruck on numerous occasions. Again, Owens was lenient; dare I say he wanted to let the game flow if players were not interfering with play?

Depends what tinted glasses you have on I guess

As I said, we were not supporters of either team.

Well done on the lbp, largely through a fine defensive effort.

Be interesting to see the match stats.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Hmmm. There were a bunch of neutrals in the pub watching this game. Owens didn't ruin the game, if anything he was lenient as we felt Leinster would cop a yellow for blatantly killing the ball when Clermont were pressing at the end.

Healy was more guilty of not binding in the scrum than Debaty. Also both teams had bodies on the wrong side of the ruck on numerous occasions. Again, Owens was lenient; dare I say he wanted to let the game flow if players were not interfering with play?

Depends what tinted glasses you have on I guess

As I said, we were not supporters of either team.

Well done on the lbp, largely through a fine defensive effort.

Be interesting to see the match stats.

Owens reffed the game well except for one or two calls. He is the best ref out there imo.

Owens is good at telling the captains what he wants, but is reluctant to issue yellow cards. As I said, I feel that he wants to let the game flow and hopes that the players do as well.

Yeah I though there was going to be a yellow at the end when Leinster killed the ball a metre from the line. But wouldn't have made a difference really as it was the last play

Owens is one of the best ref at the breakdown, he is also the best when it comes to "empathy for the game", scrum is a lottery with him though.

All in all you can't ask for a better ref outhere IMO.

On Leinster's defence. They used the drift defence superbly, and were only caught out in midfield a couple of times but had good cover to snuff out the threat.

Leinster's banana skin could be Exeter away; Clermont's could be Scarlets away. Points earned in both those games could decide the pool if Leinster win next week.

I agree Owens didn't ruin the game, it was good game.

I reckon Clermont could slip up against the Scarlets they will have a stronger team the next time they meet and they are out of Europe they will be happy to throw the ball around.

Leinster won't thrash Exeter but they should win that,Leinster are to smart.

Vince - Owens isn't the only ref to not have much of an idea of what goes on in the scrum. However, until we can get some ex front row forwards* into the refereeing ranks, then we have to go with the refs' calls.

* Then everyone will complain that they can't keep up with play.


The refs can't win, but I would hate to see rugby fans (certain coaches are already guilty) of going down the 'blame the ref' mentality often seen in football.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Hmmm. There were a bunch of neutrals in the pub watching this game. Owens didn't ruin the game, if anything he was lenient as we felt Leinster would cop a yellow for blatantly killing the ball when Clermont were pressing at the end.

Healy was more guilty of not binding in the scrum than Debaty. Also both teams had bodies on the wrong side of the ruck on numerous occasions. Again, Owens was lenient; dare I say he wanted to let the game flow if players were not interfering with play?

Depends what tinted glasses you have on I guess

As I said, we were not supporters of either team.

+1 Spot on, Hound

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Hmmm. There were a bunch of neutrals in the pub watching this game. Owens didn't ruin the game, if anything he was lenient as we felt Leinster would cop a yellow for blatantly killing the ball when Clermont were pressing at the end.

Healy was more guilty of not binding in the scrum than Debaty. Also both teams had bodies on the wrong side of the ruck on numerous occasions. Again, Owens was lenient; dare I say he wanted to let the game flow if players were not interfering with play?

Depends what tinted glasses you have on I guess

As I said, we were not supporters of either team.

+1 Spot on, Hound

You may well of considered yourselves neutrals, but in my experience fans of other home nations will always favour a French or Italian team over that of another home nation team. As for Healy being more guilty of not binding than Debaty - I absolutely disagree.

Just looking at the players and bench for both sides, it's again striking what Leinster play against to do these bloody HEC runs (bloody in every sense of the word looking at Jennings.)

They mightn't run too far this season of course! - but just looking at those teams though.

Clermont had I think 8 French players on the field initially and 7 foreign ones - a Georgian, Canadian, Scot/Aussie, NZer, Fijian, another Aussie and a Welshman. They had 5 Frenchmen on the bench and three foreigners. That's 13 Frenchmen in total and 10 foreign players for their matchday squad.

Leinster had 18 Irish players and 5 foreign players in the squad - and I included Boss, Strauss and Bent as foreign to be as strict about it as possible, even though Boss is long time Irish qualified and Strauss and Bent now play for Ireland too. Include them and it would have been 21 'Irish' players - 2 foreign.

I know club rugby is club rugby but the perception of 'Frenchness' about some of these French sides is becoming more difficult to spot - Where are all the Frenchmen on these outwardly vive la France teams???

Artful_Dodger wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Hmmm. There were a bunch of neutrals in the pub watching this game. Owens didn't ruin the game, if anything he was lenient as we felt Leinster would cop a yellow for blatantly killing the ball when Clermont were pressing at the end.

Healy was more guilty of not binding in the scrum than Debaty. Also both teams had bodies on the wrong side of the ruck on numerous occasions. Again, Owens was lenient; dare I say he wanted to let the game flow if players were not interfering with play?

Depends what tinted glasses you have on I guess

As I said, we were not supporters of either team.

+1 Spot on, Hound

You may well of considered yourselves neutrals, but in my experience fans of other home nations will always favour a French or Italian team over that of another home nation team. As for Healy being more guilty of not binding than Debaty - I absolutely disagree.

Ach well, Dodge, believe what you'd like, my friend. I think Hound's notion of what Owens was trying to achieve in his approach is spot on - I'm sure all fans could find instances of stuff that he missed for both sides if pushed. I suspect tho that is I was a Clermont fan, I'd be more unhappy at his performance than as a Leinster fan

Yeah, even the word 'neutrality' depends on tinted glass perception. I don't think I've ever been a neutral in any rugby game I've ever watched.

Even if I start neutral, I quickly side with one side............... and in European rugby? Neutral? Never heard of the word.

Leinster did well Sean O'Brien was excellent on his return, great to see him back but when he plays next week give him a week off sure he needs to rest don't worry us Ulster folk wont resent you for it Pity they didn't get the win but a bonus point away from home is important in these big head to heads a win next week and its all down to who does better v Exeter and Scarlets. Leinster will definitely look to not concede a losing bonus point next week. There is really no point in blaming the ref he didn't affect the game that badly there were other things that affected Leinster loss more than him so no point in that. Anyway lads unlucky on the loss and best of luck next week boys.

Blydi hell, I've said it was a neutral opinion, and not just mine.

We are not all bound to support any team in any given game. One of the lads who joined us today asked "Who are you supporting in this one?" My response "Neutral, I just want to see a good game."

neilthom7 wrote:Leinster did well Sean O'Brien was excellent on his return, great to see him back but when he plays next week give him a week off sure he needs to rest don't worry us Ulster folk wont resent you for it Pity they didn't get the win but a bonus point away from home is important in these big head to heads a win next week and its all down to who does better v Exeter and Scarlets. Leinster will definitely look to not concede a losing bonus point next week. There is really no point in blaming the ref he didn't affect the game that badly there were other things that affected Leinster loss more than him so no point in that. Anyway lads unlucky on the loss and best of luck next week boys.

I don't think anyone is blaming the ref?

Just a generalised comment mate that's all, about the criticism of his scrum reffing earlier on. No one said it directly but just saying that is all. As I said that bonus point could be crucial and lets face it you have got more than a lot of teams in Clermont so well done.

Great performance from the lads, I was pretty pessimistic coming in to this and said that a LBP would be worth gold and keeps us in the hunt, however we were so close to a win or even a draw would have been excellent.

Wishing Sexton hadn't gone from the cross kick on that penalty just outside the 22 and I wish he had gone for a DG in the last 10 or so

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Great performance from the lads, I was pretty pessimistic coming in to this and said that a LBP would be worth gold and keeps us in the hunt, however we were so close to a win or even a draw would have been excellent.

Wishing Sexton hadn't gone from the cross kick on that penalty just outside the 22 and I wish he had gone for a DG in the last 10 or so

It actually didn't matter that sexton went for the cross field kick, because we ended up getting another penalty a couple mins later, which would have never happened if he just went for the posts.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Great performance from the lads, I was pretty pessimistic coming in to this and said that a LBP would be worth gold and keeps us in the hunt, however we were so close to a win or even a draw would have been excellent.

Wishing Sexton hadn't gone from the cross kick on that penalty just outside the 22 and I wish he had gone for a DG in the last 10 or so

It actually didn't matter that sexton went for the cross field kick, because we ended up getting another penalty a couple mins later, which would have never happened if he just went for the posts.

Really glad you said that, would have eaten me up.

I have no problem with the cross kick. That sort of opportunism and ambition is one of the things that makes us such a good team. We pull off that sort of thing quite often. It can't come off every time though.

Pleasantly surprised with how good Leinster were and how ordinary they made Clermont look. Really think you should have nicked it and Clermont can count themselves lucky that two years in a row the Irish first choice hooker has had malfunctions in their 22 at the end of the game.

I still think you are looking at best runners up though.

I don't blame Sexton for chancing the x-field kick to Ferg, they identified Nalanga as a potential weakness in the air and took a risk, very nearly paid off and we won a penalty shortly afterwards anyway.

McFadden had a smashing game I thought, apart from the last couple of line out brain farts we were excellent. Clermont broke the line more often but our scramble was very good, they done their homework on us though, once the midfeild switch was scuppered after 10 mins by a bit of cynical play we shouldn't have used it again.

Need to get a BP against these boys next week. Why not, I think we're going to beat them well...

yes people tend to forget (sometimes) how good the Leinster defense is. that and their mastery of the rucks makes it very difficult for any teams to score against them. They totally nullified Nalaga and Sivivatu. ASM will certainly have a very tough time in Dublin, a LBP would be great achievement for them.

Mick-
I agree that the dummy scrumhalf wrap around to the inside runner nearly worked then didn't at all after that. It's a bit of a banker against teams with non-lazy forwards as it's using a strength of theirs against them. I think we should definitely do it next week. 100%. I just wouldn't feed the inside runner which is now what clement expect. I'd give it to the scrumhalf and stretch them. Up come the wingers and the scrumhalf kicks behind them to turn them. The clermont fringe defence will be less pro-active but smarter. We will not see them trying to crowd the midfield again for fear that we will release back 3 players right beside the breakdown.

The fact we used so many switches, dummy switch-switches and rangy's also means that their fringe and one out defence is now going to check itself. They will not drift as quickly from source.

If we start using runners in the second forward receiver position (and variations) against them I think they will find it difficult to defend. Goodman also had a good day against fofana. I'd sent a fair bit of traffic up the 10-12 channel, not necessarily in brute force but in guile. Persist with the dummy switches and fake wrap arounds. Have guys coming off darcy's and goodmans shoulders when they straighten and keep the deep and wide option to hold rougerie who is undoubtedly the best clermont back by some distance.

Attack inside rougerie then outside rougerie and make it so he doesn't know where to support.

Joe is the master of setting up a target as a decoy for another and I think offensively he has so many options for this game. I can see us getting the tbp if I am honest. I think clermont were really weak in defence and the questions that we asked of them yesterday will benefit us come Saturday in terms of attacking options.

Even though we didnt score I was very impressed with leinster's back play. Leinster are a joy to watch because they constantly come up with new and innovative moves in the backs. JS really is a back move guru.

Would love to see him work with the Irish team.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Great performance from the lads, I was pretty pessimistic coming in to this and said that a LBP would be worth gold and keeps us in the hunt, however we were so close to a win or even a draw would have been excellent.

Wishing Sexton hadn't gone from the cross kick on that penalty just outside the 22 and I wish he had gone for a DG in the last 10 or so

Yeah totally agree Pete, Leinster really should have snatched the draw or win there. They should be really proud of that performance though, given their form this year so far. That was a champions performance, they really took the game to Clermont and dominated for long periods.

I can't see Leinster putting 4 trys past that team Mick. I think you could deny them the LBP but not score 4.

One of the glories to behold was in the set scrum was seeing Munster drive over the ball against the head twice. I can't recall that for years in one match. It was a sight to behold.

However (and here is the inevitable sting), makes de Kock/Wigglesworth culpable of the heinous and sackable crime of feeding the ball to the second row instead of the No8.

No problem of Murray getting sacked in that score.

But those two scrums reminded me almost of pre-professional rugby and I felt for de Kock in a way I haven't since I was a teenager.

I was going to mention that as well Tiger (although not here). They looked good.

Was agonising in the last 5 minutes we had a scrum right of centre between their 22 and 10m line and we were driving them all over the place but before the ref could award the penalty Heaslip just lost control of the ball and reddan had to pick and go the blindside. Just another 2 seconds and Owens would have blown up and given us a very kickable penalty.