Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread

[VTR]

First topic message reminder :

Don't know anything about that number 9 and 10, are they decent hitters that just happen to be low in the order, or were England again awarding outlier performances to the opposition?

[Gooseberry]

Apparently Stone is out with the squad now and Archer will be joining when they go to Barbados in a couple of weeks. More positive news even if they aren't able to play.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I saw Archer was doing some fitness work (running) with the t20 side when they were out there, so good to see they’re keeping him in the setup even if it’s still months away from playing again. Similar with Stone!

[king_carlos]

Yeah, I like that tactic of keeping rehabbing players involved like that. *

I think it was a Sky vodcast where I heard that Archer's recovery to full fitness is expected to be so slow that he might only play T20/Hundred this summer as it's thought he'll be ready for a few overs a game by the back end of the summer. If so I'm glad they're taking it very slow but obviously must be such a frustrating thing for Archer.

Back when Cummins had 6 years out with back injuries I doubt many foresaw him returning as the best seamer in Test cricket and one of the greatest first change bowlers of all time. As tough as the elbow stress fracture is for a quick to recover from I'm maintaining hope that with the right care and patience Jof can make it back to his very best.

* From a cricketing perspective that is. The eco-warrior side of me instinctively questions the need for players jumping on flights every five minutes without playing but that's a side of the current cricketing world it's necessary to live to with in order to still support much cricket!

[Duty281]

Bairstow made a century on day two, but no wickets for the three seamers in a combined twenty overs.

[alfie]

Pleased to see that the batsmen have all had a good workout - regardless of the quality of the opposition , having basically all your 1-8 getting serious time in the middle can only be a good thing. Remains to be seen how the line-up performs against a full strength West Indies attack ; but it does confirm the expected selection for the Test. Encouraging that Lawrence did a good job at four , no ?

Early yet ; but hope they handle the bowling sensibly over the last two days. With just Woakes Overton and Robinson bowling seam so far , along with Leach , I am wondering whether the two uncapped fast bowlers , and Parkinson , are going to get a serious go in this match ? Hopefully they are intending to let the current attack , plus Wood , do the job an this innings - and the new boys then take over the bowling in a second innings. As long as the locals co-operate by getting bowled out on day three leaving plenty of time for one...

Whatever they do , this has to be better than a couple of rain-ruined centre wicket net sessions in Queensland as a warm up !

[Gooseberry]

Closed 48/2 for which looks a very tasty scorecard.

Without watching it does look like it must be a very flat deck for the seamers though, wickets came from Leach and a run out and West Indies spinner took 3 of their 6 (and was bowled for 48 overs). So again difficult to get too excited.

Im assuming the lineup matches the expected test side, it would be odd not to be playing the new team in their positions and since its gone as well as could be expected with the bat no cause to change. Pope not batting when Woakes did speaks volumes.

The new caps and Parkinson arent named int he match day side on Cricinfo, although they did have Bairstow down as keeper at one point so not sure how correct that is or what the rules are for this one but appears to be a 13 man side with Wood the bowler not yet used ( the one who probably least needs the practise).

Id assume the first test side would be made up of that 13, with a decision to make on the number of batsmen and the bowling make up driven by the pitch. It would be rough on Lawrence to miss out to make way for a fifth bowler, but if Leach ends up being the bulk wicket taker here...Or if it looks like being a raging turner Overton could make way for Leach I guess. I cant see them leaving Stokes out even if he cant bowl and hes still in dodgy form with the bat, although at this point hes somehow one of the least deserving of a spot.

All the same at this point Id assume the plan is Lees, Crawley, Root, Lawrence, Stokes, Bairstow, Foakes, Woakes, Overton, Robinson, Wood

Toothlessness of Woakes and Robinson with the new ball the worry.

[alfie]

Suspect your likely XI is correct , goose(allowing that Leach might replace one of the pace men if conditions suit) Though it is actually only a 12 man side at present , with the three uncapped bowlers and Pope not down to take any part.

I thought they make the "rules" around these warm up games up on the spot ; so players from outside that 12 could still get a run out - but that may not be the case this time ? If indeed none of them get any game time it does make it clear they are basically on the tour as injury spares , since as usual there are no non-Test games during the series.

Not to disparage any of the bowlers that are apparently "in" (or to wish injuries on anyone!) : but I think it would be a pity if the likes of Parkinson and Mahmood just spend the trip as net bowlers.

Would be interested to hear from anyone who has managed to watch any of the first two days about the presumably flat pitch/quality of opposition etc ?

[Gooseberry]

Windies have 13 named players and used 8 bowlers, so assume its a 13 a side 11 can bat anyone can bowl deal.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Mahmood is bowling today, in place of Wood who is apparently in the runs...just not the batting kind

[king_carlos]

I really hope Mahmood plays in the Tests.

I can somewhat understand leaving Broad and Anderson out. Their strike rates overseas have been high for a while. They can still do that holding role well, their averages have remained OK but for bowlers that usually take the new ball they haven't taken a lot of wickets away. I don't think having your opening bowlers bowl defensive lengths with the new ball is sustainable without a lot of runs to play with which England just wont have. I think there is therefore a reasonable argument for looking at younger bowlers away from home given they wont go on forever.

Personally I'd have picked Broad and left out Anderson. Firstly, as Jimmy played 12 Tests in 2021 and is so vital at home. Secondly, as if you have both in the travelling squad but don't pick them in the XI you just delay the media furore over it until D1 of T1.

I just can't understand leaving them out if it's to play Woakaes and Overton in the same XI though. Solving the issue of too many medium-fast right-arm seamers that are conditions reliant by playing two worse medium-fast right-arm seamers that are conditions reliant.

[Duty281]

Really good chance today for Mahmood to stake a claim for a spot in the first test XI, with Woakes and Overton currently wicketless, and Wood absent. A nice 3-fer will do him the world of good.

Wonder if Fisher will get any chance on this tour?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Really good chance today for Mahmood to stake a claim for a spot in the first test XI, with Woakes and Overton currently wicketless, and Wood absent. A nice 3-fer will do him the world of good.

Wonder if Fisher will get any chance on this tour?

Looks like he will after drinks, as, get this...Robinson goes off holding his back after his spell - sound familiar?

[Duty281]

Oh dear. According to Paul Newman, Anderson and Broad are not on stand-by, so Norwell is the next in line to come into the squad if Robinson's injury rules him out and/or Wood's illness does likewise.

[Gooseberry]

I really hope Mahmood plays in the Tests.

I can somewhat understand leaving Broad and Anderson out. Their strike rates overseas have been high for a while. They can still do that holding role well, their averages have remained OK but for bowlers that usually take the new ball they haven't taken a lot of wickets away. I don't think having your opening bowlers bowl defensive lengths with the new ball is sustainable without a lot of runs to play with which England just wont have. I think there is therefore a reasonable argument for looking at younger bowlers away from home given they wont go on forever.

Personally I'd have picked Broad and left out Anderson. Firstly, as Jimmy played 12 Tests in 2021 and is so vital at home. Secondly, as if you have both in the travelling squad but don't pick them in the XI you just delay the media furore over it until D1 of T1.

I just can't understand leaving them out if it's to play Woakaes and Overton in the same XI though. Solving the issue of too many medium-fast right-arm seamers that are conditions reliant by playing two worse medium-fast right-arm seamers that are conditions reliant.

I think they are still trying to convince themselves Mahmoods a quick and covering the Wood/Archer place rather than the Woakes/Overton/Robinson ones.

The other thing is they are still intent on backing Woakes to eventually live up to his potential and be half competent away from home. Its a weak comparison but did take Anderson 7 years of test cricket to get his away average below 40, and its never been below 30.

[king_carlos]

I really hope Mahmood plays in the Tests.

I can somewhat understand leaving Broad and Anderson out. Their strike rates overseas have been high for a while. They can still do that holding role well, their averages have remained OK but for bowlers that usually take the new ball they haven't taken a lot of wickets away. I don't think having your opening bowlers bowl defensive lengths with the new ball is sustainable without a lot of runs to play with which England just wont have. I think there is therefore a reasonable argument for looking at younger bowlers away from home given they wont go on forever.

Personally I'd have picked Broad and left out Anderson. Firstly, as Jimmy played 12 Tests in 2021 and is so vital at home. Secondly, as if you have both in the travelling squad but don't pick them in the XI you just delay the media furore over it until D1 of T1.

I just can't understand leaving them out if it's to play Woakaes and Overton in the same XI though. Solving the issue of too many medium-fast right-arm seamers that are conditions reliant by playing two worse medium-fast right-arm seamers that are conditions reliant.

I think they are still trying to convince themselves Mahmoods a quick and covering the Wood/Archer place rather than the Woakes/Overton/Robinson ones.

The other thing is they are still intent on backing Woakes to eventually live up to his potential and be half competent away from home. Its a weak comparison but did take Anderson 7 years of test cricket to get his away average below 40, and its never been below 30.

I like Mahmood as I think he's an English bowler who could be a good first change option. England always produce a ton of new ball bowlers but very few standout change bowlers. If Mahmood can bowl a touch quicker than the other fast-mediums, with accuracy and master the wobble ball he could be a really good change bowler when it isn't swinging IMO. Being accurate and touch quicker is already there too. He can also bowl the wobble ball already, just not to quite that same level as the best Test seamers.

Yep, 7 years for Anderson to get his overseas average below 40.

Woakes has just turned 33 though it's important to remember. Due to Jimmy's longevity I think there is a hope that can be the new rule rather than an exception. Personally I think Jimmy will prove to be the exception rather than the dawn of a new age where seamers go on and on.

Broad's longevity gets raised as well but I sometimes think "Anderson and Broad" being grouped as almost one entity can sometimes brush over the fact that Broad has had more weak spots in his record than Anderson in recent years. He averaged nearly 40 in 2021. His overseas strike rate since 2017 is nearly 70 as well. A fantastic economy of 2.55 has kept his average respectable in that time but with that being a bowling friendly period and Broad usually getting the new ball it's inescapable that a SR of 70 isn't winning many matches. That's not to say Broad has been all bad away of course and he can still be unplayable at home. I think the signs are there that Broad has aged more as you'd expect a seamer to rather than showing the same longevity as Jimmy who's 4 years older, still has a better all round record.

Even Jimmy has a clear weakness that's developed with age too. Since the start of 2019 he averages 45 with a strike rate of 110 in the second innings. That's from 21 Tests played as well so not a small sample size and is an issue worthy of discussion I think.

[Duty281]

The President's XI all out for 263. Leach 4/62, Lawrence 2/26 and Root 1/11. Seamers quite concerning. Robinson 1/19 but now injured and a doubt for the series. Woakes 0/48, Overton 0/46, Mahmood 0/26 and Fisher 0/15.

Raymon Reifer also found time to score only his second FC century in his 82nd FC game (presuming this has first-class status).

And it may have taken Anderson seven years to get his overseas average below 40, but his early appearances were more sporadic than Woakes' have been.

[Gooseberry]

And it may have taken Anderson seven years to get his overseas average below 40, but his early appearances were more sporadic than Woakes' have been.

Whilst Anderson did have a break Woakes has only been a regular in 2016, aside from that hes never played more than 6 tests in a year and is constantly in and out. 42 tests in 9 years. Anderson played 8 in his first year and was pretty much always in the side by his 5th year aside the injuries. He'd played 24 away tests by the time that average dropped below 40, Woakes has played 17.

Sure Im not trying to suggest Woakes is likely to get there any time soon, hes still up over 50 at the moment and as noted above the real kicker is his age. Im struggling to see why they are backing him so much other than just having no faith at all in the younger ones or maybe not wanting to burn them (in the same way Anderson was in Aus). I can understand some of the Broad./Anderson exclusion logic but continuing with Woakes is harder to fathom when hes not a long term solution. Overton is at least youngish.

The point is though that overnight success overseas, especially for for county type bowlers is hard to come by and needs them to be backed and encouraged over the long term not chopped and changed. They arent going to get better at bowling overseas by bowling in England. Andersons test match list also suggests they held him back form overseas for a long time, and it was only when he started getting trusted for a regular spot that he started to develop into the bowler he is.


In rare defence of Broad hes copped for some awful tours in recent times, including Sri Lanka twice. Overall his away and home records arent much different and probably has been underrated as an overseas bowler, also one of the rare quick successes. Which maybe underlines my above arguments a bit but he was much more of an aggressive tall bowler and pacier than he is now in his early days. Maybe some hope Mahmood can replicate that? Straw clutching perhaps but thats where we are at with England.


Spinners being the wicket takers really does suggest its a complete pudding which puts some more questions over how meaningful the batting was, but we've seen a fair few tests pitches with nothing in them from the West Indies in recent years so could prove to be useful practise.

If Robinson is out thats a huge blow really, hes certainly been on of the green shoots who's actually come out with credit from the last years disasters.

[JDizzle]

https://twitter.com/cameronponsonby/status/1499495634419785728?s=21

Good luck Zak

[king_carlos]

https://twitter.com/cameronponsonby/status/1499495634419785728?s=21

Good luck Zak

Ooft. No one show Nasser that.

[alfie]

Really good chance today for Mahmood to stake a claim for a spot in the first test XI, with Woakes and Overton currently wicketless, and Wood absent. A nice 3-fer will do him the world of good.

Wonder if Fisher will get any chance on this tour?

Looks like he will after drinks, as, get this...Robinson goes off holding his back after his spell - sound familiar?

Ah , these young fellows break too easily ... better send for Jimmy

Yes it is a concern : hopefully nothing too serious this time - we will see ; but there is no doubt Robinson's fitness issues are likely to continue to complicate England bowler selection. When he's fresh and firing he is clearly a major asset (at least at home) but if he pulls up lame too often mid-match he's going to be hard to manage when they are picking three quicks and a spinner.

Seems clear enough from the figures in both innings that this pitch didn't offer a lot to the pace men. Not a huge worry : as long as they all get to bowl a number of overs it will still serve as a useful intro. After all , a lot of pitches in West Indies these days are a far cry from the old days so perhaps they need to get used to it. Spinners got the job done so that is something.

Trust Wood will be fine by next week , if perhaps a little underdone. Might have to adjust my First Test XI :
Crawley Lees Root Lawrence Stokes Bairstow Foakes Woakes Wood Leach Mahmood perhaps ?

[guildfordbat]

The President's XI all out for 263. Leach 4/62, Lawrence 2/26 and Root 1/11. Seamers quite concerning. Robinson 1/19 but now injured and a doubt for the series. Woakes 0/48, Overton 0/46, Mahmood 0/26 and Fisher 0/15.

Raymon Reifer also found time to score only his second FC century in his 82nd FC game (presuming this has first-class status).

And it may have taken Anderson seven years to get his overseas average below 40, but his early appearances were more sporadic than Woakes' have been.

Hi Duty - I don't think so as both teams had more than eleven named players at the start.

[Gooseberry]

England much improved with the ball second digs, Wood and Stokes managed to get some effective overs out which is even better news.

All the bats down to Woakes made at least one decent score in the match, bar Stokes ...but being Stokes he took a wicket first ball.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

12 man squad named for the 1st test, Robinson is indeed out with back spasms so it is likely the following XI according to Dobell

Crawley
Lees
Root
Lawrence
Stokes
Bairstow
Foakes (wk)
Woakes
Overton
Wood
Leach

Mahmood is in the squad but likely to miss out according to Dobell. Pitch is expected to be fairly low and slow apparently but who knows for sure!

I see a new ball pairing of Chris Woakes and Craig Overton overseas and I weep

[Duty281]

A very uninspiring team. Imagine leaving out Anderson and Broad so you can try out new options...which turn out to be Woakes and Overton.

Could be worse, I suppose, could be Sri Lanka. But I don't think we'll get to say that for much longer.

[Gooseberry]

On paper its a really well balanced side and attack. Tons of batting and all the bowling options you could want, and even a spare keeper.

Unfortunately these are England players. But still, there's no excuse for them to Sri Lanka this.

[JDizzle]

Absolutely slander to conflate Woakes and Overton. Woakes has played 17 away Tests - Overton only 3! We know Woakes is rubbish overseas, we only strongly suspect Overton is. He deserves a chance with the new ball, and then he can be discarded for T3 after averaging 56.

[Soul Requiem]

Absolutely slander to conflate Woakes and Overton. Woakes has played 17 away Tests - Overton only 3! We know Woakes is rubbish overseas, we only strongly suspect Overton is. He deserves a chance with the new ball, and then he can be discarded for T3 after averaging 56.

I kind of agree, knowing and assuming are two very different things. I'd use Hoggard as an example, everything would suggest he'd have been poor overseas but he was in fact pretty useful outside of England. I think it's unlikely that the same will be true of Overton but we know it's not true of Woakes.

[JDizzle]

Yeah - I accept I am biased being a Somerset fan, and whilst I don’t have high hopes he has done all that can be asked of him. Has destroyed County lines ups for years now and looked an improved Test bowler last summer, if not a special one.

New ball vs a weak Windies line up is all he could have asked for to prove himself. Can’t be any excuses.

[Duty281]

West Indies (possible) 1 Kraigg Brathwaite (capt), 2 John Campbell, 3 Nkrumah Bonner, 4 Kyle Mayers, 5 Jermaine Blackwood, 6 Jason Holder, 7 Joshua da Silva (wk), 8 Alzarri Joseph, 9 Kemar Roach, 10 Veerasammy Permaul, 11 Jayden Seales.

West Indies team likely to be that. Some very tidy seam bowling options, with the exciting Jayden Seales providing some x-factor and Roach perhaps going past Sobers' wicket haul in this test. Permaul is the spinner - he's had a very staggered test career, only seven tests since his debut in 2012, and this will be only his second home test.

The top seven isn't particularly strong, though it's full of batsmen who have done significant bits in their career, without much consistency. Holder's scored a double ton. Blackwood played that fabulous hand when the West Indies beat England in 2020. Mayer once guided the West Indies to a 395 chase. Bonner's made a strong start to his test career, averaging 41, Brathwaite has a considerable number of test tons, and Campbell...um...once scored 68 in a test innings.

Only one series win in the Caribbean in the last fifty years for England. But never mind that, the first task for England is to score 300.

[Gooseberry]

One genuinely good proven test batsman between the two sides. The tails could matter a lot, Joseph at 8 is on a par with Englands 10/11


Going back to the subject of Englands hone track bully seamers ...anyone heard about Scurann recently? There was a period he kept Woakes out of the side in that propping up the batting role.

[guildfordbat]

West Indies have announced their squad for the 1st test vs England

West Indies first Test squad: Kraigg Brathwaite (c), Jermaine Blackwood (vc), Nkrumah Bonner, Shamarh Brooks, John Campbell, Joshua da Silva (wkt), Jason Holder, Alzarri Joseph, Kyle Mayers, Veerasammy Permaul, Anderson Phillip, Kemar Roach, Jayden Seales.

Main headlines;
- Shannon Gabriel is out with a hamstring injury - not been ruled out of the whole series, but seems unlikely he will be at full pelt at any point.
- Shai Hope, Roston Chase, Rahkeem Cornwall and Jomel Warrican all dropped
- John Campbell recalled and likely to open the batting
- Uncapped seamer Anderson Philip included

Think you're likely looking at an XI of;

Brathwaite (c)
Campbell
Bonner
Brooks
Mayers
Blackwood
Da Silva (wk)
Holder
Roach
Permaul
Seales

I think they are much more likely to play the extra bat, with Mayers filling in 5th bowler overs than play an extra bowler.
Depending on the pitch, they might leave the spinner Permaul out for Joseph.
The batting order itself is pretty tough to work out...Blackwood has been all over the order recently, and they sometimes bat Holder above Da Silva too.

Dobell reporting exactly that possibility on the eve of the opening Test and referring to the Windies currently being ''undecided'' on their line up.

[Jetty]

One genuinely good proven test batsman between the two sides. The tails could matter a lot, Joseph at 8 is on a par with Englands 10/11


Going back to the subject of Englands hone track bully seamers ...anyone heard about Scurann recently? There was a period he kept Woakes out of the side in that propping up the batting role.

I was hoping Curran was ready. I much preferred watching him bowl than Woakes. He started bowling again in January after his back injury.

[alfie]

Team as expected then - guess Mahmood will carry drinks as long as Wood is good to go. Be an interesting early trial of Life After Anderson…

Don’t think I will see much of as not on Aussie TV and home internet has gone down. Hope it is a good game anyway : two teams both with rather a lot to prove, one might say

[guildfordbat]

Dobell reporting that Lees given his Test cap by Bairstow but unaware of one for Mahmood strongly suggesting he misses out as generally expected.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

England win the toss and bat first, as expected Mahmood misses out

West Indies spring a little surprise, with Mayers being the bat to miss out and playing both Permaul and Joseph. Holder to bat at 6 most likely.
A touch surprised by their selection of going with the extra bowler in this one

[JDizzle]

England win the toss and bat first, as expected Mahmood misses out

West Indies spring a little surprise, with Mayers being the bat to miss out and playing both Permaul and Joseph. Holder to bat at 6 most likely.
A touch surprised by their selection of going with the extra bowler in this one

Yes. Optimistic that they think England will bat enough over to justify a fifth specialist bowler.

Unless they are copping out a bit and want to carry the spinner in the first innings and hope it breaks up second innings?

[Gooseberry]

They have an issue with how many over they can get out of Joseph and missing Chase as a good part time spinner.


Very happy England get to bat first.

[Duty281]

The bowling make-up for the West Indies was expected, it's just Brooks instead of Mayers being the surprise.

Wicket expected to break up later on...but will either side last long enough for that to be a factor? 14 wickets fell in the entire Pakistan-Australia test, I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen in one day between these two!

Some nice early swing for Roach.

[guildfordbat]

Root again seemed rather feeble and uninspiring in interview following the toss. However, I'll defer judgement on his captaincy for now and see what unfolds over the next few days.

[VTR]

We've finally got Stokes, Foakes and Woakes in the same team. Result really doesn't matter after that

[JDizzle]

We've finally got Stokes, Foakes and Woakes in the same team. Result really doesn't matter after that

They are going to bat Bairstow at 6 and break them up just to drive everyone insane.

[Duty281]

Lees, the 22nd new opener since Strauss retired, starts in the usual England opener fashion.

Root at 3 then...

[JDizzle]

On the plus side, Lees innings was nine times better than Burns at the Gabba in terms of balls faced and infinitely better in terms of runs scored.

[Gooseberry]

Imagine if Pakistan had picked Alex Lees

[Duty281]

Ugly shot, phenomenal catch.

17/2. Business as usual!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

hey it's England!

[Mind the windows Tino.]

17/2. Business as usual!

In a perverse way, I am actually comforted by this given the dark times we are living in.

[Gooseberry]

Probably be deriding this pitch as an absolute road 60 overs into the WI opening stand

[Duty281]

17/2. Business as usual!

In a perverse way, I am actually comforted by this given the dark times we are living in.

I agree, that Pakistan-Australia test was very dark.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

It's a reset.

Jonny Bairstow is playing.

You can't have both

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