England Training Squad

First topic message reminder :

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/jones-names-england-training-squad/


Squad meets up this weekend (4th to 6th):

Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Cipriani (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Nathan Earle (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers), Dan Robson (Wasps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Northampton Saints), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joel Kpoku (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Michael Rhodes (Saracens), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Will Spencer (Leicester Tigers), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Not considered for selection due to injury/ fitness/ other:
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), George Kruis (Saracens), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

Danny Care added to this list since I cut and pasted it from RFU site

Collapse2005 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:PS...the talk is that Cips tried to walk away with a bottle of Vodka which started off the whole trouble.

Didn't he do the exact same thing when he played for the Rebels? Except that time when the waitress tried to take it off him he told her to google him.

Not sure about the second part of the story either way, but he did get in trouble for doing that at the Rebels. It hasn't been confirmed what he did to kick it off this time. He must have taken something from the club to cause the incident and provoke a larceny charge, but nothing serious enough to be found guilty of larceny or theft. You'd think going behind the bar and taking a bottle of vodka out the club then the charge would have stuck?

robbo277 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:PS...the talk is that Cips tried to walk away with a bottle of Vodka which started off the whole trouble.

Didn't he do the exact same thing when he played for the Rebels? Except that time when the waitress tried to take it off him he told her to google him.

Not sure about the second part of the story either way, but he did get in trouble for doing that at the Rebels. It hasn't been confirmed what he did to kick it off this time. He must have taken something from the club to cause the incident and provoke a larceny charge, but nothing serious enough to be found guilty of larceny or theft. You'd think going behind the bar and taking a bottle of vodka out the club then the charge would have stuck?

The beeb report mentions something about trying to take a bodycam from a bouncer. It also basically said he was hammered and didn't realise what he had done til much later

GeordieFalcon wrote:Genuinely who gives a toss about Cipriani. He should never have gone to SA.

We all know that him / Ford / whoever are just keeping the shirt warm for Marcus Smith.

Well good job he did other wise it might have been 3-0

expect the larceny refers tp the body camera

This incident with cipriani is pretty minor really. I know he has form but with some players the reason they are good is almost because they have the ridiculous self belief and are pretty up themselves. That's why he backs himself to do things other players wouldn't dare on a rugby pitch. It was stupid but he has apologised. A lot worse happens on yours even in the pro era that simply doesn't get caught

In the old days you had to do something like this just to get into the team!

Danny should have been born in the amateur era!

A journalist attending the very first RWC in 1987 was walking very early in the morning in Kings Cross, Sydney. He looked into a derelict building and was saddened to see a few people sleeping rough. He looked closer and then realised it was several members of England's RWC team after a good night out. He escorted them back to their hotel. It was 2 days before their 1/4 final loss to Wales. Danny would have fitted in perfectly!

Barney McGrew did it wrote:If he's drinking too much vodka he needs a serious word with himself - it's a girl's drink.

Damn right...he should be on the Wild Turkey! Now that's a proper drink!

The report I read said that he escaped from handcuffs whilst still with the police and ran off.

1. Is he related to Houdini?
2. Who was the copper that caught him? He is not exactly slow.

He probably ran into a bus when trying to escape, all done to the Benny Hill theme tune.

screamingaddabs wrote:This incident with cipriani is pretty minor really. I know he has form but with some players the reason they are good is almost because they have the ridiculous self belief and are pretty up themselves. That's why he backs himself to do things other players wouldn't dare on a rugby pitch. It was stupid but he has apologised. A lot worse happens on yours even in the pro era that simply doesn't get caught

I agree it was minor but if you were his coach you would run after patience after a while wouldn't you? I mean its just stupidity that makes everyone's life unnecessarily harder.

Collapse2005 wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:This incident with cipriani is pretty minor really. I know he has form but with some players the reason they are good is almost because they have the ridiculous self belief and are pretty up themselves. That's why he backs himself to do things other players wouldn't dare on a rugby pitch. It was stupid but he has apologised. A lot worse happens on yours even in the pro era that simply doesn't get caught

I agree it was minor but if you were his coach you would run after patience after a while wouldn't you? I mean its just stupidity that makes everyone's life unnecessarily harder.

The RFU are calling him in on a disrepute charge and although I don't think he should be banned by the blazers over this, I wouldn't have any problem if Eddie Jones decided he wasn't a risk worth taking and never called him up again.

I bet Owen Farrell is loving this

Pie wrote:I bet Owen Farrell is loving this

Ford probably loving this more, I would think.

Strictly speaking has the backs been the problem? Nope its the forwards that have looked like powder puffs.

Cipriaini is irrelevant.

The forwards coach needs to be getting this pack sorted out!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Strictly speaking has the backs been the problem? Nope its the forwards that have looked like powder puffs.

Cipriaini is irrelevant.

The forwards coach needs to be getting this pack sorted out!

I think it smacks somewhat of desperation that Jones has turned backwards to a player like Cipriani when he has been playing with variations the Ford/Farrell combo for so long successfully and now he looks to change it as the results drop off, it does indeed suggest he may be looking in the wrong place and I think England's back row is the biggest concern. What needs to happen more than anything is that he finds his chosen 23 to 30 players and starts to bed them in for a RWC which is only 9 or 10 games away

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:The report I read said that he escaped from handcuffs whilst still with the police and ran off.

1. Is he related to Houdini?
2. Who was the copper that caught him? He is not exactly slow.

I doubt he was running in a straight line

Ford has proved he's not up to it this last year imo, I'd stick with Cips or Farrell.

Chris Ashton red-carded in a pre-season game for Sale. Not sure from the video if he did swing a punch.

https://rugbyonslaught.com/red-card-x2-chris-ashton-rory-kocket-sent-off-brutal-brawl-friendly/

You do speak some tosh sometimes sgt.

Rugby Fan wrote:Chris Ashton red-carded in a pre-season game for Sale. Not sure from the video if he did swing a punch.

https://rugbyonslaught.com/red-card-x2-chris-ashton-rory-kocket-sent-off-brutal-brawl-friendly/

Seems a clear punch from Ashton wearing 15 on the bald guy about 15 seconds in.

Pie is correct - "What needs to happen more than anything is that he finds his chosen 23 to 30 players and starts to bed them in for a RWC which is only 9 or 10 games away".

Our RWC combinations must be bedded in. That means playing them from now on. No more experimentation. He has had since the last RWC to look at lots of players and now is the time to nail his colours to the mast. I don't mind any long term injured being brought back but otherwise some consistency is now required.

I cant help thinking another bitterly disappointing world cup for England approaching

hugehandoff wrote:Pie is correct - "What needs to happen more than anything is that he finds his chosen 23 to 30 players and starts to bed them in for a RWC which is only 9 or 10 games away".

Our RWC combinations must be bedded in. That means playing them from now on. No more experimentation. He has had since the last RWC to look at lots of players and now is the time to nail his colours to the mast. I don't mind any long term injured being brought back but otherwise some consistency is now required.

What if Jones chooses his best side and then concludes it isn't good enough? Wouldn't you want him to make changes rather than stick with a squad which he didn't believe could do the job? Lewsey didn't make England's 2003 World Cup squad until that year's Six Nations, so we aren't at the point of no return yet.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I cant help thinking another bitterly disappointing world cup for England approaching

Potentially yes. But there's more to rugby then the world cup.

On the other hand, Eddie has shown is that in the short term massive changes can be made and these can happen quickly. We could be poor right up to the tournament. And then if he and the others get the coaching right for it we could make the finals. Our winning streak came off the back of poor form and no one expected it, I can easily believe it could happen again.

We talk about building for world cups but building seems like a lottery these days, injuries and factors out of the coaches control have too much impact in the long term. All he can do is play a similar squad repeatedly, win as much as possible and hope

Rugby Fan wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:Pie is correct - "What needs to happen more than anything is that he finds his chosen 23 to 30 players and starts to bed them in for a RWC which is only 9 or 10 games away".

Our RWC combinations must be bedded in. That means playing them from now on. No more experimentation. He has had since the last RWC to look at lots of players and now is the time to nail his colours to the mast. I don't mind any long term injured being brought back but otherwise some consistency is now required.

What if Jones chooses his best side and then concludes it isn't good enough? Wouldn't you want him to make changes rather than stick with a squad which he didn't believe could do the job? Lewsey didn't make England's 2003 World Cup squad until that year's Six Nations, so we aren't at the point of no return yet.

I certainly wish to avoid the Lancaster effort of playing combinations against Wales and Australia in key RWC 2015 matches that had not enjoyed a run out together before. Eddie has enjoyed plenty of time to experiment so now is the time to allow his first choice side to gain experience together. But of course that does not mean a change or two cannot take place. A common sense approach, but picking lots of different players from now on would not seem sensible from now on. This also needs to factor in that we need 2 players in each position ready to go so I am talking about a squad of 30 odd, but the emphasis heavily on the starting XV.

Lancaster fell down more to a change in tactics and systems rather than merely personnel. Given he's finally tweaking his back row I can't really.too many other major changes. Yes there will be the continued bleating over people's favourites not being chosen .

Jones seemed happy with the way Curry, Shields and Cipriani went in South Africa, so thats three new faces high up the selection pecking order. He can now have a look at Ashton which makes a fourth new player in the mix. I'm fairly sure we ought to give game time to a third scrum half for the squad too

If we think he should stop there, then that would rule out looking at someone like Manu Tuilagi, and the outside chance of late-charges from Jack Willis and Ben Obano if they get fit towards the end of the season.

Realistically, we can only afford to have consistent selection if we get consistent results. If we raise our game to beat the SANZAR teams at home in the autumn, then that would be good grounds to stick with the same personnel. If we don't, then the 2019 Six Nations will be the last chance to try to hit on different combinations capable of winning key matches back-to-back.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You do speak some tosh sometimes sgt.

Apparently the RFU talk tosh as well, charge is for the tip tackle. One assumes that the RFU are charging him based on the refs reason for giving him a red card.

Rugby Fan wrote:Jones seemed happy with the way Curry, Shields and Cipriani went in South Africa, so thats three new faces high up the selection pecking order. He can now have a look at Ashton which makes a fourth new player in the mix. I'm fairly sure we ought to give game time to a third scrum half for the squad too

If we think he should stop there, then that would rule out looking at someone like Manu Tuilagi, and the outside chance of late-charges from Jack Willis and Ben Obano if they get fit towards the end of the season.

Realistically, we can only afford to have consistent selection if we get consistent results. If we raise our game to beat the SANZAR teams at home in the autumn, then that would be good grounds to stick with the same personnel. If we don't, then the 2019 Six Nations will be the last chance to try to hit on different combinations capable of winning key matches back-to-back.

Making allowances for a special talent like Manu is one thing, whereas allowing late charges from Jack Willis and Ben Obano is another. If he does have to go down this road then clearly England are struggling big time. I really don't think the 6Ns is a time to experiment. Ireland and Wales away! Eddie will have had enough time by then to be picking his strongest XV, whoever that is.

hugehandoff wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Jones seemed happy with the way Curry, Shields and Cipriani went in South Africa, so thats three new faces high up the selection pecking order. He can now have a look at Ashton which makes a fourth new player in the mix. I'm fairly sure we ought to give game time to a third scrum half for the squad too

If we think he should stop there, then that would rule out looking at someone like Manu Tuilagi, and the outside chance of late-charges from Jack Willis and Ben Obano if they get fit towards the end of the season.

Realistically, we can only afford to have consistent selection if we get consistent results. If we raise our game to beat the SANZAR teams at home in the autumn, then that would be good grounds to stick with the same personnel. If we don't, then the 2019 Six Nations will be the last chance to try to hit on different combinations capable of winning key matches back-to-back.

Making allowances for a special talent like Manu is one thing, whereas allowing late charges from Jack Willis and Ben Obano is another. If he does have to go down this road then clearly England are struggling big time. I really don't think the 6Ns is a time to experiment. Ireland and Wales away! Eddie will have had enough time by then to be picking his strongest XV, whoever that is.

Speaking of Manu, he got his first caps in the World Cup 2011 warm-ups. He hasn't had the stellar international career one would hope for because of injuries, but it's not like he was found out.

You'd think an Obano or a Willis though would have to play the whole season and really tear up trees to get noticed. Coming back to fitness at the back end of the season probably won't be enough. Both are probably better off focussing on just getting fit next year to have a proper pre-season and a crack at Six Nations 2020.

robbo277 wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Jones seemed happy with the way Curry, Shields and Cipriani went in South Africa, so thats three new faces high up the selection pecking order. He can now have a look at Ashton which makes a fourth new player in the mix. I'm fairly sure we ought to give game time to a third scrum half for the squad too

If we think he should stop there, then that would rule out looking at someone like Manu Tuilagi, and the outside chance of late-charges from Jack Willis and Ben Obano if they get fit towards the end of the season.

Realistically, we can only afford to have consistent selection if we get consistent results. If we raise our game to beat the SANZAR teams at home in the autumn, then that would be good grounds to stick with the same personnel. If we don't, then the 2019 Six Nations will be the last chance to try to hit on different combinations capable of winning key matches back-to-back.

Making allowances for a special talent like Manu is one thing, whereas allowing late charges from Jack Willis and Ben Obano is another. If he does have to go down this road then clearly England are struggling big time. I really don't think the 6Ns is a time to experiment. Ireland and Wales away! Eddie will have had enough time by then to be picking his strongest XV, whoever that is.

Speaking of Manu, he got his first caps in the World Cup 2011 warm-ups. He hasn't had the stellar international career one would hope for because of injuries, but it's not like he was found out.

You'd think an Obano or a Willis though would have to play the whole season and really tear up trees to get noticed. Coming back to fitness at the back end of the season probably won't be enough. Both are probably better off focussing on just getting fit next year to have a proper pre-season and a crack at Six Nations 2020.

There will be a natural clear out post RWC so you would have thought that is what a lot of the new kids should be aiming at

lostinwales wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Jones seemed happy with the way Curry, Shields and Cipriani went in South Africa, so thats three new faces high up the selection pecking order. He can now have a look at Ashton which makes a fourth new player in the mix. I'm fairly sure we ought to give game time to a third scrum half for the squad too

If we think he should stop there, then that would rule out looking at someone like Manu Tuilagi, and the outside chance of late-charges from Jack Willis and Ben Obano if they get fit towards the end of the season.

Realistically, we can only afford to have consistent selection if we get consistent results. If we raise our game to beat the SANZAR teams at home in the autumn, then that would be good grounds to stick with the same personnel. If we don't, then the 2019 Six Nations will be the last chance to try to hit on different combinations capable of winning key matches back-to-back.

Making allowances for a special talent like Manu is one thing, whereas allowing late charges from Jack Willis and Ben Obano is another. If he does have to go down this road then clearly England are struggling big time. I really don't think the 6Ns is a time to experiment. Ireland and Wales away! Eddie will have had enough time by then to be picking his strongest XV, whoever that is.

Speaking of Manu, he got his first caps in the World Cup 2011 warm-ups. He hasn't had the stellar international career one would hope for because of injuries, but it's not like he was found out.

You'd think an Obano or a Willis though would have to play the whole season and really tear up trees to get noticed. Coming back to fitness at the back end of the season probably won't be enough. Both are probably better off focussing on just getting fit next year to have a proper pre-season and a crack at Six Nations 2020.

There will be a natural clear out post RWC so you would have thought that is what a lot of the new kids should be aiming at

Will there?
A) Who?
B) Why?

I think you would have to put Hartley and Cole in the "I am retiring from International rugby to extend my club career (and before I get dropped for younger better players)" category. I think some players like Haskell, Ashton and Cipriani will try and grab one more big payday in Japan/France/lower English leagues. Others like Mike Brown and Danny Care will just see that they are unlikely to be around in 4 years time for the next world cup and decide it isn't worth the hard work to be put onto the scrapheap 12-18 months out from the next world cup. It isn't a criticism of any of them, a changing of the guard is a good thing and proof that we have enough young talent coming through.

Players should only be retired IF they are not offering more than the players taking over. And at the moment theres few who could fit that bill.

Im not convinced on these 4 year cycle things. Just play you best team and bring in players and remove them as and when the time has come. That way the world cup takes care of itself.

The AB's are the epitome of doing this.

Hartley Cole Robshaw Haskell Care Brown. Probably more on the fringes I can't think of at the moment. May not go straight away but some will

So no RFU action against Cipriani, QED his place ion the squad is safe.

Sharkey06 wrote:I think you would have to put Hartley and Cole in the "I am retiring from International rugby to extend my club career (and before I get dropped for younger better players)" category.  I think some players like Haskell, Ashton and Cipriani will try and grab one more big payday in Japan/France/lower English leagues.  Others like Mike Brown and Danny Care will just see that they are unlikely to be around in 4 years time for the next world cup and decide it isn't worth the hard work to be put onto the scrapheap 12-18 months out from the next world cup.  It isn't a criticism of any of them, a changing of the guard is a good thing and proof that we have enough young talent coming through.

Lions Tours also influence player's career decisions. Once you've made a World Cup, hanging on for two more years to see if you can get picked for a Lions tour can seem like a realistic target. And, of course, you might find that the two years from a Lions tour to the next World Cup also seems less of a challenge...

I suspect one reason Dallaglio played on to the 2007 World Cup, when he was 35, is because his 2005 Lions tour was cut short by injury, so he didn't feel like he'd be retiring from international rugby on a good note.

It depends how much of a challenge South Africa seems. If the Boks win the 2019 World Cup, then a Lions tour to play them might be an enticing prospect.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Players should only be retired IF they are not offering more than the players taking over. And at the moment theres few who could fit that bill.

Im not convinced on these 4 year cycle things. Just play you best team and bring in players and remove them as and when the time has come. That way the world cup takes care of itself.

The AB's are the epitome of doing this.

I agree with this. If we look at the ages at 31/12/19 of players mentioned as part of a possible post RWC clear-out:

Hartley - 33
Cole - 32
Robshaw - 33
Haskell - 34
Care - 32
Cipriani - 32
Ashton - 32
Brown - 34

None of them will be that old. I don't know how they could all be considered to be up-to-the-job in September 2019 and subsequently all considered to be past it in February 2020.

Cipriani and Ashton aren't even in the tournament squad yet, and if they do break in then hopefully they go on past the World Cup and aren't just short-term measures to get through the tournament. There is a tour to NZ in 2020 and a Lions tour in 2021, and if they're both playing well they could be targeting those as a swansong.

I think Brown, Care and Haskell are clinging on at the moment anyway, let alone in 2020. Haskell probably doesn't make my tournament squad. Brown makes the tournament squad but not the match day squad with everyone fit if Daly continues to settle at 15. Care is hanging on to his place in the match day squad due to a lack of options, but may not last the year. I'm not expecting any of them to feature strongly in the World Cup campaign and wouldn't be surprised to see them culled afterwards if they didn't make the desired impact.

Robshaw, Cole and Hartley will probably start if they can keep their form high and stave off challenges from Shields and Wilson, Sinckler and Williams and George and Cowan-Dickie respectively. And if they can, I don't see why they couldn't keep going past the World Cup? Even if they got usurped for their starting shirts, they could be bench options - especially the two front-rowers.

Robbo..

Ashton wont be in post World Cup...because Adam Radwan and Zac Kibirige will be...

PS
Lewington has moved to Sarries this summer as well...he's another small elusive speedster who ill be watching with interest.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Players should only be retired IF they are not offering more than the players taking over. And at the moment theres few who could fit that bill.

Im not convinced on these 4 year cycle things. Just play you best team and bring in players and remove them as and when the time has come. That way the world cup takes care of itself.

The AB's are the epitome of doing this.

I agree. I think teams should play the best squad they have, given rest for some players, and bleed in young talent on the fly.

On the other hand, I do think some players are looking at a 4 year cycle: Put in the work with the RWC as a milestone or end point. The payday for playing for England is significant, so not just a playing decision to back off.......

7 week ban for Ashton.

Poor guy. The powers that be really do have it in for him don't they. Bet he wishes he stayed away now!

The combined effect of his 3 farcical bans have now taken away 30 weeks of his career... Clark got 32 for his infamous transgression. I know which I think is worse.

Yes he seems a bit of a clown but don't really see why he attracts so much venom from so many people.

Lets hope his performances in the remaining 5/6ths of the season influence his World Cup chances more than this.

Not a problem..like I said above...that spell will show that there are a few very young wingers in the league that are flippin electric!

Ashton is the Tonya Harding of English rugby

Pie wrote:Ashton is the Tonya Harding of English rugby

Soon to be played by Margot Robbie in the film of his life?

Sharkey06 wrote:I think you would have to put Hartley and Cole in the "I am retiring from International rugby to extend my club career (and before I get dropped for younger better players)" category.  I think some players like Haskell, Ashton and Cipriani will try and grab one more big payday in Japan/France/lower English leagues.  Others like Mike Brown and Danny Care will just see that they are unlikely to be around in 4 years time for the next world cup and decide it isn't worth the hard work to be put onto the scrapheap 12-18 months out from the next world cup.  It isn't a criticism of any of them, a changing of the guard is a good thing and proof that we have enough young talent coming through.

Rememeber when Lancaster cleared out the dead wood like Nick Easter

Turns out Watson redid the achillies tendon in a photo shoot.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45347239

To be fair the problem is that the initial fix had failed, it only showed up at the event

Lucky in a way.

Interesting to see Jones has lost two more coaches over the last few weeks, our sports psychologist and our head of sports science.

Jones has said in the past that he believes in an uncomfortable working environment for best results. not sure if that's working out though.

On the plus side Martin Bayfields doing quite well on Masterchef.