England Training Squad

First topic message reminder :

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/jones-names-england-training-squad/


Squad meets up this weekend (4th to 6th):

Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Cipriani (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Nathan Earle (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers), Dan Robson (Wasps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Northampton Saints), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joel Kpoku (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Michael Rhodes (Saracens), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Will Spencer (Leicester Tigers), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Not considered for selection due to injury/ fitness/ other:
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), George Kruis (Saracens), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

Danny Care added to this list since I cut and pasted it from RFU site

I agree Launchbury isn't bad you just need to look at the sweep of.motm s he picks up the second he's back in the team! Him and Lawes work very well together. But I disagree that lawes is a starting lock when everyone's fit. What I do think though as those 3 and Kruis give england the strongest set of anyone each offering something slightly different but to a very high standard.

I think Launchbury, Lawes and Itoje are all good players, but I wouldn't rate any of them above Retallick (or Sam Whitelock for that matter). All 3 of them have their own strengths and weaknesses and you can perm any 2 from 3, so give us good depth. But the problem for me across the England team is the lack of world class players. Picking Lawes ahead of Launchbury isn't going to have a material affect on England - having Retallick available to England would be a significant upgrade.

Retallick is the best player in the world. Not sure what people define world class so depends.

World class for me is someone who makes the best 15 in the world, or falls into the 50:50 choice category. So if Retallick is the best in the world he is a world class player. The other second row in a world 15 would be Whitelock for me, so in my eyes he is also world class. Lawes/Itoje/Launchbury/AWJ/Etzebeth (if he is your cup of tea) fall into the bracket just below world class.

Looking back, I would have said Martin Johnson in his prime would have got in a world 15 so is world class. Simon Shaw was a very good player with great longevity, but would not for me have been a world 15 player, so falls just outside the world class bracket.

And please don't get me on the subject of 'Legend' - anyone who has ever played a sport professionally and has appeared on TV or radio 5 seems to be a 'Legend' these days.

No I wouldn't say whitelock is actually that good. Looked a shadow without retallick. And though I'd say Launchbury is the 2nd best lock in the world I would say he's competing for retallick place so wouldn't be classed by me under that as world class either.

Personally I'd be a bit more generous and day world.class is best 3 in their position. Would still create as many arguments though!

There is always the danger of thinking 'hes an all black so must be better'. How a player fits into a team is actually usually much more important than the individual skills, which is why 'world class' is such a terrible rating.

Producing 'world class' performances is a more realistic measure, but still not great.

Itoje needs to be at his absolutely meanacing best this season. he wasn't really firing against us last week, but he looked in awesome shape...really powerful and fast, so hopefully once the season has got through a few rounds he finds his feet.

Lawes and Launchbury are both very good international standard players. At the moment they start for me...until we see how Itoje is going.

Kruis is back aswell and looked huge. If he's fit and stays injury free...then he definitely comes in to the equation and he's a class act.

England have the luxury of a raft of very good international locks. The key thing is getting the right balance that works for the pack.

Theres a few youngsters coming through that might make this battle even more interesting.

"No I wouldn't say whitelock is actually that good."

Don't understand that one at all 712. Whitelock is immense, does all the core lock tasks to the very highest standards. He's not as big a carrier as Retallick but is a true world class lock.

The nearest I've seen to the NZ pair over the last year or so, is James Ryan, he's some player.

I rate the English quartet, but they've flattered to deceive somewhat for a year to 18 months, they need to up their game.

Not that good as in world class as stated above and by you in the definition of top player in his place. He's very good but no where near retallick and looked a bit lost without him. As lost succinctly put its players around you that can bring out the best in you.

Sorry to hark back to Retallick but he is 6' 8" and 19st, none of the England locks match up to that. Plus he is a very good rugby player. England used to have big mean nasty packs, but we simply don't have that anymore. We have seldom been able to match New Zealand or Australia for skill, but have been able to 'beat them up'. I don't see that from England. I just don't see where England can dominate a game - we don't have a great scrum, don't have a great lineout and struggle at the breakdown.

I don't see any young players/bolters who are going to come into the England team over the next few months who will make a significant improvement. Some mention the likes of Marcus Smith, but is he a better player than Ford or Cipriani - or just younger?

Billy V is back today, let's hope he stays fit.

Marler, George, Williams
Launchbury, Itoje
Simmonds, Vunipola, Underhill
Robson, Cipriani

May, Slade, Farrell, Wade
Daly
Vunipola, Cowan-Dickie, Cole
Lawes, Hughes, Shields
Care, Te'o (Tuilagi)
Lots can and will change form and fitness wise.
Many other players in with really good shouts.

Vunipola M, fantastic player that he is.....is over played by both England and Saracens.....Marler at his best is the better scrum prop where MV has the superior open loose 'rugby' playing game and obviously as a Lion and European cup winner is not too shabby at scrum time himself. I just prefer him as the impact game changer.
Couple of other challengers, most injured however, Sinckler being top of the list.

Hooker is again beginning to offer us a feast of options, though perhaps only George is nearing the required international standard. None of them have the ability of a 19 stone rampaging Thompson.
Cowan-Dickie still gets comments regards his throwing and Hartley will be raging against the dying of the light, concussion and other foes.
I'll obviously will take the accusation of bias, but I do hope Taylor has the season he deserves and hopefully makes a realistic challenge to George.
My fear for him has always been that he is blown up too much for his frame....

The younger Bristolian Tiger is also missed.

2nd row has always been a treasure trove for english rugby, though I'd really like to see some big athletic timber coming through the contemporary 3 / 4 selections. Not that we don't have quality but but we need them to be challenged and we need options in approach.

The backrow is as nebulous as ever, but surely this is where coaches earn their corn?
Jones's obsession with the plank at 6 has to be left behind and a balanced 6,7&8 is the option.
We have the players and with some luck with injuries (as i write both Shields, concussion and Hughes, knee, have been replaced) and consistent sensible selection - surely we can express ourselves, dominate and become more than the sum of our parts?
My concern is the Saracen (Rhodes is it?)will get selected at 6.....
Finally with both our island 8 options braking too often, surely its time for Morgan to offer a real challenge/option again?

Youngs needs to step up, its WC year after all. His game needs to speed up and what would be the point of selecting DC at 10 if you throw balls at shoe laces or heads?
Robson has made the challenge and with a bright start this season will provide the ball into the backs hands better than the competition.

Ford is not done. Form alone will allow him to take the shirt, regardless of any injury opportunities.
However its now or never for Jones to give the Cipriani Farrell axis an opportunity. There's no point dying wondering. AND NOW FOR THE TRUTH.....actually psychologically I dont think DC has it. Sadly you have to recognise he's a damaged soul who's self destructing efforts speak volumes about his unresolved innerchild.
You may think thats all tosh and that he will find emotitional as well as rugby redemption, but honestly its a movie reel thats been replaying for far too long now and I doubt he barely even recognises the script anymore.
Ultimately just like muscle memory we have emotional stories and it is crucial for us to be able to change that we understand our motivations.
For all the time Blacky has given him the fact is Jonny and Danny are apples and oranges, complete opposities.

Farrell gets it till someone better comes along.....though with Joseph injured and Slade playing OC you could try a lump if only one of them could make and maintain the standard for long enough to lace their HQ boots.
If Joseph comes back then options will be plenty, however, as I recall he always misses out in WC years.

Wings......FB?

Nice. Like that summary cheers. Bits i don't agree with but like where youre coming from.

kingelderfield wrote:Ford is not done. Form alone will allow him to take the shirt, regardless of any injury opportunities.
However its now or never for Jones to give the Cipriani Farrell axis an opportunity. There's no point dying wondering. AND NOW FOR THE TRUTH.....actually psychologically I dont think DC has it. Sadly you have to recognise he's a damaged soul who's self destructing efforts speak volumes about his unresolved innerchild.
You may think thats all tosh and that he will find emotitional as well as rugby redemption, but honestly its a movie reel thats been replaying for far too long now and I doubt he barely even recognises the script anymore.
Ultimately just like muscle memory we have emotional  stories and it is crucial for us to be able to change that we understand our motivations.
For all the time Blacky has given him the fact is Jonny and Danny are apples and oranges, complete opposities.

Off the pitch they are opposites in every way. On the pitch they are complete opposites in some ways. Whatever Cipriani's problems off the pitch they do not stop him playing well. Off the pitch he can be an idiot. On the pitch he tends to make good decisions.

A few years ago Cipriani was a great talent with a tendency to make poor on field decisions. No more. Now he combines his undoubted talent with good decision making. At the moment he is head and shoulders above Ford. The question is; can he work with Farrell. With Ford Farrell can boss the back line. That will not work with Cipriani. If it is to work Farrell needs to be told that in attack Cipriani is the leader. In defence Farrell can be the leader.

With the tactical restraints imposed by MOC removed, Ford was outstanding today.

Listening to the radio today, sounds like Cipriani was very good in first half, quiet in second. Doubt it will count against him as Farrell would play, but I notice Glaws are using 36 to kick goals.

I thought Cips was generally a very good kicker? I'm sure I've seen him nail many tough kicks.

Oh and Brad Shields broke his cheek against Exeter. 3-8 weeks out now

Ford was very good against Falcons in attack....in defence however, he was targeted and was poor. Tough game to generally judge players as it was so loose, there must have been 100 or so missed tackles.

Officially less than 50 missed tackles in total ( Operating from memory as looked last night) with none recorded against Ford. Must admit there was one where Eastmond started a tackle on Goneva, Ford joined and Niki made about 10 m in contact before being felled.

yappysnap wrote:I thought Cips was generally a very good kicker? I'm sure I've seen him nail many tough kicks.

Sarcasm?

No I'm sure I've seen him do well! He's a confidence kicker to be honest. But then both twelve trees and Farrel are fallible too.

Cipriani has at times done well from the tee, but rather despite a seriously flawed technique. His short follow throw meeans he is at risk of decelerating before impact. That he is freed up from worrying about goal kicking allows him to concentrate on what he is good at. Same of course for Ford at international level.

What this means though is that it feels as if Cipriani or Ford are to play, then EJ will have to keep Farrell at 12.

That's interesting. I wonder why that issue with their technique hasn't been changed. Maybe it's too ingrained, or they can't swing their leg as high as necessary, tight hamstrings or something.

I'll have to watch Marcus Smith and see what his technique is like. As you say of their kicking is poor then it almost makes Farrel undroppable. Not an issue imo as he's good enough at 12 to warrant selection anyway, just not as Captain.

yappysnap wrote:Oh and Brad Shields broke his cheek against Exeter. 3-8 weeks out now

Hughes went off injured too I think

Don't think Cipriani has been a regular club goalkicker for some time. Gopperth and Daly (long range) seemed to handle a lot at Wasps, while Twelvetrees had the tee at the weekend.

At his age, Cips isn't going to show major improvement, but he'd probably be more consistent if he was kicking week in, week out.

Rugby Fan wrote:Don't think Cipriani has been a regular club goalkicker for some time. Gopperth and Daly (long range) seemed to handle a lot at Wasps, while Twelvetrees had the tee at the weekend.

At his age, Cips isn't going to show major improvement, but he'd probably be more consistent if he was kicking week in, week out.

He was last a regular kicker at Sale. Agree unlikely to address technique now.

I have to say it's been a good long while since I've seen kvesic playing so well. Less a comment on him as I think his chance is in the past but more an eye on how Baxter can improve players.

Only 26 you would hope his chance was not in the past - but he will need to stay in the Chiefs side and keep putting in strong performances.

Apparently his 3 "jackalled" turnovers so far this season are already 3 more than last season. One paper I read suggests that this is because the refs are allowing defenders a little bit longer this season over the ball.

Kvesic only started 4 matches last year apparently. That was because Baxter described him as too one dimensional. He was only focused on the breakdown. Baxter wanted a more rounded player that links well in attack. Kvesic has taken that to heart and come back a stronger player. He could put himself back in the mix?

Do you think Eddie has his absolutely first choice team in his head IF everyone was fit and on form?

Or do you think due to all the injuries etc...he's still unsure himself?

I'd say so. Theres going to be a bolter or 2 but would anyone think it's massively different to
Vunipola hartley Cole
Kruis Itoje
Robshaw underhil vunipola
Youngs ford
May Farrell Joseph Watson Daly?
I'd say 10 13 and 15 are the most contentious?

I believe there still many uncertainties due to injuries and therefore Eddie awaits to see how players perform at club and then international level.

Many issues to be resolved:

1. Back row
2. Fly half
3. Centres
4. Full back

amongst others.

Injuries will remove several players over the coming month, but if Eng get a little luck in this area then Eddie will have some difficult choices to make.

Hopefully some players will be able to get game time at club level without too much pressure to rush them back for England. The Daily Mail was praising Manu today and to be honest he does not need that. Let him complete 8 matches before papers big him up.

I think we need to get our injury issue sorted before anything.

Our reliance on Billy V and Manu as carriers has been brutally exposed...in fact its staggering that we cant produce other heavy duty carriers like them!

Breakdown needs addressed.

It worked in Oz when we simply smashed the sh1t out of the breakdown with Haskell etc...but that has been well and truly dealt with now.

The pack on a whole need a shot of pure aggression and nasty as I think they are quite soft.

Look at players like Retalick...yes he can play...but he's also like a rabid dog, snarling and tough as nails. We had players like Johnson, Dalaglio, Hill, Vickery ...aggressive players...it seems like that is getting coached out of players these days in the prem...

I have been fairly critical of England over the last 12 months, but to be fair to Eddie a lot of the problems were due to injury. On one hand England have huge player resources, but not when it comes to proper international class players. EJs was forced into rushing back players because we lacked effective ball carriers. Billy against Ireland in the GS game, Nathan Hughes last season and in the summer, Manu last Autumn, T'eo against Italy.

On a positive note we now have several players back from injury, touch wood, who could all help the cause. At 8 we have BV, NH, SS and even Ben Morgan all fit and playing. At 7 we will have both Currys, Underhill, Kvesic, all offering options to Robshaw/Haskell. Manu and maybe T'eo soon as well. I would love to see some real alternatives to Dan Cole, but hopefully the injury situation allows us to at least pick from as full a compliment of players as realistic in the modern game. Both the clubs and England have a duty to manage the players in the best way. Fingers crossed.

The challenge is picking the RWC 1st choice team and giving them the 6Ns to gel.

The problem is, that you just feel its a matter of WHEN Billy and Manu get injured again...not IF. I have no trust that we will have them available.

The same with a few other players.

And as I said above...injuries have definitely hindered Eddie Jones..and theres nothing he can do about that.

hugehandoff wrote:I have been fairly critical of England over the last 12 months, but to be fair to Eddie a lot of the problems were due to injury. On one hand England have huge player resources, but not when it comes to proper international class players. EJs was forced into rushing back players because we lacked effective ball carriers. Billy against Ireland in the GS game, Nathan Hughes last season and in the summer, Manu last Autumn, T'eo against Italy.

On a positive note we now have several players back from injury, touch wood, who could all help the cause. At 8 we have BV, NH, SS and even Ben Morgan all fit and playing. At 7 we will have both Currys, Underhill, Kvesic, all offering options to Robshaw/Haskell. Manu and maybe T'eo soon as well. I would love to see some real alternatives to Dan Cole, but hopefully the injury situation allows us to at least pick from as full a compliment of players as realistic in the modern game. Both the clubs and England have a duty to manage the players in the best way. Fingers crossed.

The challenge is picking the RWC 1st choice team and giving them the 6Ns to gel.  

I agree largely with the first two paragraphs, but I'm not sure on the last bit.

I'd almost rather Eddie took each series as it came now and said "this lot of players are fit and on form, this lot aren't, I'm going to pick from the first bunch only".

If he wants Manu and Billy in his World Cup team and they're about 80% of the way there by the Autumn, leave them out. Go on without them and see if they can force their way in for the Six Nations when they're 100%.

Eddie will need to bring a feel-good factor about England again. The 5 test defeats in a row will have hurt, I think it's important for him to make England a tough team to beat again and get his players playing well, regardless of who he picks. Then others can come back in to a happy camp.

He's built an experienced core of players and, because of injuries, he's had to interchange quite a bit, to the extent there are probably 25 players who would each be aggrieved if they didn't make the starting 15 and 40 players who would be aggrieved not to make a World Cup 31. He just needs to pick the best guys for each series, each match and see how things pan out.

When is the first squad named? I say this every time, but the first couple of rounds of the European competitions usually see a barrage of injuries, so the squad we would pick now is unlikely to be the one that is available for the AIs

Think it was this thread where we were talking off rucks and favouring the sides and refs interpretation. This is from the pro 12

Check out @Murray_Kinsella’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1039449492137934848?s=09

Not sure there's a strong enough view from refs anywhere on occasion!

BamBam wrote:When is the first squad named? I say this every time, but the first couple of rounds of the European competitions usually see a barrage of injuries, so the squad we would pick now is unlikely to be the one that is available for the AIs

Autumn training squad to be named on 20th September for a meetup at the end of the month. Squad for AIs to be announced on 18th October.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it was this thread where we were talking off rucks and favouring the sides and refs interpretation. This is from the pro 12

Check out @Murray_Kinsella’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1039449492137934848?s=09

Not sure there's a strong enough view from refs anywhere on occasion!

Genuinely can't tell if that's a cheap shot in at the side on a player not in the ruck or just a really hyper aggressive legal clear out.

Them Irish though.