England Training Squad

First topic message reminder :

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/jones-names-england-training-squad/


Squad meets up this weekend (4th to 6th):

Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Cipriani (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Nathan Earle (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers), Dan Robson (Wasps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Northampton Saints), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joel Kpoku (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Michael Rhodes (Saracens), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Will Spencer (Leicester Tigers), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Not considered for selection due to injury/ fitness/ other:
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), George Kruis (Saracens), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

Danny Care added to this list since I cut and pasted it from RFU site

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it was this thread where we were talking off rucks and favouring the sides and refs interpretation. This is from the pro 12

Check out @Murray_Kinsella’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1039449492137934848?s=09

Not sure there's a strong enough view from refs anywhere on occasion!

It was in the premiership thread in the club section. Equally relevant here though.

(For context Eddie Jones had a meeting with the head of premiership referees to discuss how the breakdown was reffed. He felt the comeptiution was favouring the attacking side more than other comeptitions including tests did, and that was one of the reasons premiership players were finding themselves getting penalised heavily in tests and opposition teams able to turn England over in ways they felt were illegal)

One way or t'other...it needs to be fixed!

GeordieFalcon wrote:One way or t'other...it needs to be fixed!

Aye. Perhaps this needs to be the mantra for our opensides and their required attitude to the ball?

The thing we have the players who are strong at the breakdown...this is the puzzling thing.

So surely there are other factors that are causing the issues.

Coaching and the opposition's skill I guess.

We generally dont pick fetchers, and the guys that do that work for England are usually only adequate.

Also it Used to be Cole, Hartley, Robshaw and Hask who got them, now two of those are out, Cole is pretty crap on the deck and Robshaw showed he can't do it all himself. Of the newer players Itoje prefers giving away penalties, Underhill may come good if he can stay conscious and Hughes seems eternally injured or just not good enough

that's quite a good summary Yappy...

What about the Currys?

It's been keeping the ball rather than getting it back where england have struggled. For me mainly carriers making poor decisions to go in isolated.

What carriers 7.5?

Starting back 5...up till now.

4 ??
5 Lawes
6 Underhill
7 Kvesic
8 Billy V

GeordieFalcon wrote:What carriers 7.5?

Just a sample, looking at the 6Ns against France - (Carries, Metres, Turnovers Conceded)

Mako 7,11,0
George 2,2,2
Cole 3,4,0
Launchbury 9,3,0
Itoje 6,2,2
Lawes 11,34,0
Robshaw 11,15,1
Hughes 3,7,0
LCD 5,8,1
Marler 1,4,0
Sinckler 9,19,0
Haskell 7,21,0
Simmonds 9,25,1

Hardly exhilarating stats LT.

Mako 7,11,0 - In for his carrying....Poor
George 2,2,2 - In for his carrying...poor
Cole 3,4,0 -
Launchbury 9,3,0 - 9 carries and he made 3 meters!
Itoje 6,2,2 - 6 Carries and he made 2 meters!
Lawes 11,34,0 - Good Stats
Robshaw 11,15,1
Hughes 3,7,0
LCD 5,8,1
Marler 1,4,0
Sinckler 9,19,0 - Decent Stats
Haskell 7,21,0 - Good Stats
Simmonds 9,25,1 - Probably off one run.

No wonder we have no dynamism....

For forwards metres made not always relevant. It is hard from match stats to be sure whether carries were good or not - tidying up slow ball will never make huge yards but are vital.

However the stats for George in that game do not make good reading, especially if both the turnovers he conceded were from both his carries (could include dropping a pass forward thus not a carry, or indeed throwing a pass forward)

Oh I appreciate that most forwards carries will be in traffic, but I still don't think most of those stats are good reading.

A whole heap of carriers gf. And by that I'm talking in the opposition 20 people with the ball rather than I suspect the vunipola s etc you allude to. Decision making has been lacking in the 12 months here and I think it reflects not having an attack coach. We look great at the inital bread etc but runout of ideas and that's when I think people forwards and backs are making a bad decision to go for contact.

You need to also watch the game if you're going to use carrying stats imo. You can see if a forward is carrying well (ala Billy) but he may only make 10m or so, but all in hard traffic.

Equally, one break in open play for 30m looks great on paper, but doesn't make the guy a great carrying option.

What has been the issue for England is finding hard carrying option in the tight when Billy isn't playing. I can't see where this solution is coming from tbh.

You can talk heavy duty carriers but rewatch a game and wait for the pen against us when attacking. .it will either be for going off their feet or holding on. It normally reflects people going into contact and.not being aware of the situation and ending with people like ford being first in the ruck. It's organisation rather than personnel. Though some.players are dumb it seems!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You need to also watch the game if you're going to use carrying stats imo. You can see if a forward is carrying well (ala Billy) but he may only make 10m or so, but all in hard traffic.

Equally, one break in open play for 30m looks great on paper, but doesn't make the guy a great carrying option.

What has been the issue for England is finding hard carrying option in the tight when Billy isn't playing. I can't see where this solution is coming from tbh.

When Hughes arrived on the scene he looked like he would be a good carrier but he slipped back, I think due to a series of injuries. He is showing signs of being back to form that first got him picked.

Will Sam Simmonds continue as an 8? Or will he move to the flank?

IS Mercer playing 8 or looking more like a 6?

Lawes is first choice lock forward.

After Launchbury and Itoje.

Nah Lawes is no 1 I think.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Nah Lawes is no 1 I think.

7&1/2 and I have already had the debate on this one. IMO, Lawes these days offers everything the others do, but they as individuals only offer parts of what he does. He is a more rounded player, without much in the way of weaknesses, but sets a high standard at everything he does.

Lawes>Launchbury>Itoje (Kruis)

TBH it’s Itoje who has it to prove IMO. The France 6N stats above give an indication of his potential not always living up to performance I’d say. Carrying unremarkable, metres made low and being turned-over. I’d start with Lawes & Launchbury with Itoje a possible impact from the bench. He needs to work a bit more on the basics of lock. Still, not a bad place to be regarding locks. The problem areas are still BR & Centres for me.

And I'd throw in again I think jones sees it as Kruis Itoje and another.

Jones does probably see it differently.

I was always a bit negative about lawes as I felt the basketball player label was quite apt, but I think now that Lawes has fixed his carrying and added some weight...I think he is as complete a lock forward as we have.

For me its him and A.Nother. Ideally a more powerhouse heavy duty lock as that would be a nice compliment so maybe Launchbury?

We don't really have many juggernauts like Martin Johnson or Simon Shaw these says.

He hasn't fixed his carrying. He still gets stripped of the ball by backs and drops it in contact at least once a game. He's not a big carrier in the tight which is left to.others for England. But yes him and Launchbury suit each others games.

Well ok...he's improved it considerably. Which puts him ahead of most of the other England pack players....

I think he does his fair share of tight carrying aswell now 7.5

7&1/2, I think you will find that he has tightened up that part of his game and he now every bit as good as Launchbury in the tight, but with the ability to burst clear as well.

This weekend will be interesting, with Lawes up against the Sarries pack, not seen the teamsheet for Sarries but assume Itoje will be playing.

I didn't think Launchbury looked very good at all against Chiefs, failed to make ground in the tight and rather unusually I admit, dropped a couple of balls as well

He just isn't. Great in the lineout. But lacks in the tight. And apparently the worst scrumager. Again I'd day I'm extremely happy to have these 4 and personally think no other team has a group.of locks as good.

Im a big fan of Kruis aswell...he's had a bad couple of season through injury and form...but him back bang in top form and fit...is a hell of a player aswell.

As I said previously....injuries are the main problem we need to try to ease (as eradicating is impossible)

No 7&1/2 wrote:He just isn't. Great in the lineout. But lacks in the tight. And apparently the worst scrumager. Again I'd day I'm extremely happy to have these 4 and personally think no other team has a group.of locks as good.

He was playing 6 and itoje at Lock because Itoje was a better scrummager. That may be as much to do with Itoje being a phenomenon as anything else. 'Not as good as' can still mean good compared to players outside of that quartet

I think the fact we are still having the discussion around strengths and weaknesses and who is the best of Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury and Lawes is a fair indicator that they are all good, but none of them are outstanding/complete. The mark of a great player is that no matter how good the alternatives are, you miss him and I don't get that sense from any of our players - if X isn't available then Y can come and play just as well.

I am not sure where this places Billy Vunipola as he is probably the only forward where we genuinely miss him. I am a big fan of Hughes (in a minority on this site) and Sam Simmonds, but I think everyone agrees they are a serious downgrade from Billy. For the rest of the positions in the pack, it is a case of perm 1 from 2 or 3 by personal preference.

Sharkey06 wrote:I think the fact we are still having the discussion around strengths and weaknesses and who is the best of Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury and Lawes is a fair indicator that they are all good, but none of them are outstanding/complete.

It wasn't so long ago that Kruis was first on the sheet. He started all three Tests in Australia, and featured in the return match that autumn. Then he got injured (in England training, inevitably) and didn't play at all in the 2017 Six Nations. The plan had been to play him alongide Lawes and Itoje, with those two sharing lock and blindside duties.

Nevertheless, he was an uncontroversial selection for the Lions, and few objected when he started the first Test (most quibbles about the second row were whether Alun Wyn Jones should be his partner or Itoje). And then Kruis had a miserable game. Joe Marler went into detail on a recent podcast on just how far Kruis fell from grace. You do wonder whether he was physically and mentally ready for that Lions tour. We may look back and think it ended his international career.

Kruis dropped down the pecking order after that tour, and injury put him out of contention for the South Africa tour. However, when he was first choice, England went well, so it will be fascinating to see whether he can regain that form after coming back from hi soperation. There was a sense that our set piece was more cohesive was he was part of it. He's on the bench this weekend.

Totally agree lost and tried to.spell out I think we're lucky to have them all.

There's the wider argument over what is world class etc but the quality of replacements has a huge say in how much someone is missed. A worse player may be missed more simply due to lack of back up.

Any thoughts on Kvesic forcing his way in? Early days in the season yet, but he seems to have been given license to play an all-round game and have the skills for it at 7, and he’s got a decent ground game to boot.

jaydubs1977 wrote:Any thoughts on Kvesic forcing his way in? Early days in the season yet, but he seems to have been given license to play an all-round game and have the skills for it at 7, and he’s got a decent ground game to boot.

Its not impossible but there has to be a Curry and an Underhill in the way.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:I think the fact we are still having the discussion around strengths and weaknesses and who is the best of Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury and Lawes is a fair indicator that they are all good, but none of them are outstanding/complete.

It wasn't so long ago that Kruis was first on the sheet. He started all three Tests in Australia, and featured in the return match that autumn. Then he got injured (in England training, inevitably) and didn't play at all in the 2017 Six Nations. The plan had been to play him alongide Lawes and Itoje, with those two sharing lock and blindside duties.

Nevertheless, he was an uncontroversial selection for the Lions, and few objected when he started the first Test (most quibbles about the second row were whether Alun Wyn Jones should be his partner or Itoje). And then Kruis had a miserable game. Joe Marler went into detail on a recent podcast on just how far Kruis fell from grace. You do wonder whether he was physically and mentally ready for that Lions tour. We may look back and think it ended his international career.

Kruis dropped down the pecking order after that tour, and injury put him out of contention for the South Africa tour. However, when he was first choice, England went well, so it will be fascinating to see whether he can regain that form after coming back from hi soperation. There was a sense that our set piece was more cohesive was he was part of it. He's on the bench this weekend.

Great summary Rugbyfan.

For me Kruis at his best was brilliant, but Kruis just playing his average game isn't an international. I wonder if we saw him at his peak or if he can get back there again. He's a real good technical player and got a lot better at the physical stuff, the opposite of our other three locks.

What did Joe Marler say about him?

lostinwales wrote:

jaydubs1977 wrote:Any thoughts on Kvesic forcing his way in? Early days in the season yet, but he seems to have been given license to play an all-round game and have the skills for it at 7, and he’s got a decent ground game to boot.

Its not impossible but there has to be a Curry and an Underhill in the way.

And then he's got various youngsters like Chisholm and Clifford too.

Clifford's another that's dropped off the radar totally.

yappysnap wrote:What did Joe Marler say about him?

During the match post-mortem, the coaches lined up video clips, showing what had gone wrong. Kruis was in the first, and then the second. Marler noticed that both videos had been tagged with "GK". Rob Howley then made a point, after which Kruis decided to speak up. He proceeded to make exactlly the same point Howley had just made, which left everyone a bit bemused. They went back to the videos, and Marler noticed that the next one up was also tagged "GK" but the coaches decided to skip it, saying "Think we've already covered that".

Selections for the midweek match made it clear that Kruis was going to be dropped from the Test squad (not just the starting XV). Marler was already a midweek player, and said how they all took the mickey out of him before welcoming him into the fold.

As part of his welcome, Kruis went out with some of the players to an Italian. Rory Best told the staff to keep the booze flowing, and the bill reached $2000. They then played credit card roulette, where all cards are put into a hat, and drawn out one by one. The last card remaining pays the whole bill. Marler says it got down to him and Kruis, and everyone suggested they split it, which Marler claims he was willing to do. Kruis insisted they draw again, and he ended up last in the bag.

To make matters worse, the story soon got around that Kruis had been lumbered with a major tab. Marler says even Steve Borthwick gave him stick over it, which he apparently rarely does.

Clifford still has the potential to be an absolute class class player. Injury keeps doing for him.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:I think the fact we are still having the discussion around strengths and weaknesses and who is the best of Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury and Lawes is a fair indicator that they are all good, but none of them are outstanding/complete.

It wasn't so long ago that Kruis was first on the sheet. He started all three Tests in Australia, and featured in the return match that autumn. Then he got injured (in England training, inevitably) and didn't play at all in the 2017 Six Nations. The plan had been to play him alongide Lawes and Itoje, with those two sharing lock and blindside duties.

Nevertheless, he was an uncontroversial selection for the Lions, and few objected when he started the first Test (most quibbles about the second row were whether Alun Wyn Jones should be his partner or Itoje). And then Kruis had a miserable game. Joe Marler went into detail on a recent podcast on just how far Kruis fell from grace. You do wonder whether he was physically and mentally ready for that Lions tour. We may look back and think it ended his international career.

Kruis dropped down the pecking order after that tour, and injury put him out of contention for the South Africa tour. However, when he was first choice, England went well, so it will be fascinating to see whether he can regain that form after coming back from hi soperation. There was a sense that our set piece was more cohesive was he was part of it. He's on the bench this weekend.

I can see no benefit for England in their players going on Lions tours. They either come back knackered so that they are no good for club or country in the following season or their form is destroyed by bad management.

Now that Argentina have beaten both Australia and South Africa, England's World Cup group looks a much tougher proposition.

Bit behind in the bath game but cokanasiga has had a very good first half. Mercer and underhill too.

Rugby Fan wrote:Now that Argentina have beaten both Australia and South Africa, England's World Cup group looks a much tougher proposition.

You think?

I always think Argentina flatter to deceive somewhat. They'll get these odd great results then get humped for 5 or 6 games. I can't see England losing to Argentina tbh.

Mercer put himself in with a shout yesterday, superb performance. Great carrying bearing in mind he is a lightweight 8. Faletau will have to be on his best form to get the shirt back.

Cokanasiga looked like he is realising his potential; he was within a left hand in touch of getting a hat trick. With him and Roko, Bath are very powerful and dangerous on the wings.

LondonTiger wrote:

Pie wrote:Ashton is the Tonya Harding of English rugby

Soon to be played by Margot Robbie in the film of his life?

Was thinking more Joanna Lumley

yappysnap wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

jaydubs1977 wrote:Any thoughts on Kvesic forcing his way in? Early days in the season yet, but he seems to have been given license to play an all-round game and have the skills for it at 7, and he’s got a decent ground game to boot.

Its not impossible but there has to be a Curry and an Underhill in the way.

And then he's got various youngsters like Chisholm and Clifford too.

Clifford's another that's dropped off the radar totally.

He keeps getting mentioned but is he actually a potential selection? How old is he?
Clifford is in the same boat as Billy V and Manu - Need to stay injury free for a while.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Mercer put himself in with a shout yesterday, superb performance. Great carrying bearing in mind he is a lightweight 8. Faletau will have to be on his best form to get the shirt back.

Cokanasiga looked like he is realising his potential; he was within a left hand in touch of getting a hat trick. With him and Roko, Bath are very powerful and dangerous on the wings.

Didn't see any of the games this weekend (bloody work!), but I gather that Cokanasiga did indeed have a good game. Woodward talked him (and Polledri from Gloucester) up in the Daily Heil. He could add some balance to our back-three, I like the through of him and May combining.

Looks like Polledri looks like one that got away though, could have done with his ball carrying ability! Mind you, given that we have a number of decent young sevens coming through, he might serve Italy better.

I like the look of the Bath back-row on paper, three young English prospects. How did they combine? I could see definitely see Baggins and Mercer playing together in an England back-row at some point. Not sure about Ellis, liked him at age grade but I wonder if he is destined to be a (very decent) club pro.

Ellis was ok. Mercer and Underhill looked class together. For England I'd think mercer is more likely at present to push his way through at 6. So many class players coming through though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ellis was ok. Mercer and Underhill looked class together. For England I'd think mercer is more likely at present to push his way through at 6. So many class players coming through though.

I'd guess Mercer will come in post RWC. If he has a great season, isn't picked and England tank at the RWC it will be like Itoje all over again