England Training Squad

First topic message reminder :

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/jones-names-england-training-squad/


Squad meets up this weekend (4th to 6th):

Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Cipriani (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Nathan Earle (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers), Dan Robson (Wasps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Northampton Saints), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joel Kpoku (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Michael Rhodes (Saracens), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Will Spencer (Leicester Tigers), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Not considered for selection due to injury/ fitness/ other:
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), George Kruis (Saracens), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

Danny Care added to this list since I cut and pasted it from RFU site

Just want to wish all our players good luck and good fitness for the coming season as the club season gets underway tonight. No doubt injuries will come thick and fast and key England players will be dealt savage blows, but fingers crossed that we have a little luck here and this is kept to a minimum. Great to see Lawes, Nathan Hughes, Ben Morgan, Manu all starting this weekend. Even Billy is due back early in the season. Ben Morgan, like many others, has endured terrible injuries over recent seasons and it would be great to see him back at his best. England need as many options as possible. Sarries have chucked Mako and Maro straight back into action, but it was never going to be any other way - hopefully their workload is managed sensibly.

2 months until South Africa. The fight back starts......
Will the Jones Mitchell dream team be a nightmare or an inspired act of cognisance?
Will duffer blazers notice the watered gin, as more jobs go and bonuses maintained?
Will Jones stick with golden wrists or fall forward on continued underperforming halfbacks?
Really, can we all start discussing the AB's game now. How we're supposed to throw a side together against their progressive organisation rather baffles moi. Still why be sensible?

Same old, same old......
Itoje or Launchbury to captain the national side.
Great to see all our hooker options on the field playing well. From a position of weakness with injuries removing our players, we now have a relative position of strenght;
George, Cruse, Cowan-Dickie, couple of other old blokes......

World cup year.....

You mean george hartley LCD walker dunn. Cruse is so far down the list you'll need another piece of paper.

Have you been on the gin KingE?

Gordon's A lemon (a live!)
I did go to some noby eatery in Holborn last month where they reckoned they had over a hundred different gins....i didn't try one though tbh the scoff was good.
I actually grew up in the next village to where the Gilbert sisters drank themselves silly.
I used to swill the stuff like lemonade as a lad.....

No 7&1/2 wrote:You mean george hartley LCD walker dunn. Cruse is so far down the list you'll need another piece of paper.

He looked good at the weekend, but you're right having been injured so much the challenge is huge.

Hopefully the Hooker competition will be fascinating throughout the season. George looked very good and I think is in pole really. Apparently CD's throwing let him down. As for Hartley, I'd love his form to prove me wrong because I don't believe his captaincy - however good a leader he is - is sufficient for him to get the start.

As mentioned above I'd go strait to either Itoje of Launchbury to captain the side.

Crazy but what is it 10 or 11 weeks till we face the AB's?

Yup just short of 11. If hartley misses out I'd imagine it'd be concerns from concussion. I'd like to see continuity with george and LCD. Working with borthwick should improve his lineout work. Farrell is captain so unlikely to change.

Why are we playing the AB's 2nd game in?

Surely the 3rd Saturday is the plum date......I guess its no loss to the blazers.....the match is secondary to the corporate machine

Actually they'll make even more money if they supported a winning organisation.

So it'll be the AB's 9th game in a dozen or so weeks and our 2nd game a week after braking the seal against the Boks.......

Was it ever thus?

Because that's the agreed date between the 2 sides. No match against a tier 1 side is a loss we sell out the stadium.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because that's the agreed date between the 2 sides. No match against a tier 1 side is a loss we sell out the stadium.

Indeed that's the limited corporate perspective i'm referring to.

If the blazers actually backed the profession game and specifically a consistently winning national side, then their coffers would burst. But no, safe, corporate bonuses are the summit of or their mortgage repayment mentality.

I'm really surprised you're back banging that drum. If only they'd pick more wasps players and cipriani etc etc.

I see your default is still to conflate unconnected issues.
If only they had some imagination. Why not play the AB's twice, infact why not play 5 games instead of 4?
You see with imagination things really are possible;
Play Rsa at hq wk 1
Play AB sell US stadium live on ABC wk 2
Saxons play Japan sellout hq reduced ticket prices for non corporates wk 2
Play AB hq wk 3
Play Oz hq wk 4
Use expanded squad giving real opportunities.

Now you might say there will be reduced ticket receipts with a game going abroad but infact with good marketing shirt sales ets will far exceed.
Could you ever imagine the blazers having any real imagination?

Stab the fans in the back amd play to half empty stadium in usa brill. Then rather than spread the game try to pay nz to play is twice brill. Fly the squad across the pond and risk injury for no reason brill. You do flip about. 1 day it's player safety then money. The the rfu are too focused on money the not enough.

Not to mention the international game is a partnership with the prem why try to annoy the.

I can only see one outcome in THAT game v the AB's! And it wont be pretty if your in white!

Honest opinions time.

Is Jones good enough to turn this round...or has he entered the usual stage of his management tenures (as he has with most other teams) and he's never going to pull it round?

Honestly Geordie I dont know. I want to think we can pull it together and that everyone involved, including EJ, steps up.
The odds are against it, but with a fair wind with injuries and some sensible selections we can still regain form and mojo.....bring it on.....fingers crossed.

Easily good enough.

We can still do well.

We may not beat the ABs but then few do, I still back us to beat anyone else under Jones. Especially if he stops faffing with the pack.

Sort out the backrow and get the package tactics right and we're good.

Easily good enough to beat Scotland, France, Ireland, South Africa........oh no we recently lost to all of those.
Nothing is going to be easy......lets just hope we've turned the page with the new season. However what you have to understand is that this is no longer a post WC but a pre WC circumstance and the competition is going to be just as focused as us. No more winning stretches. Even the AB's should expect to lose pre WC.

So what are these sensible selections jones should make then king?

Don't over train the players.
Don't beast the players leading up to a match.

Pick two locks and bench the third.
Pick 2 flankers and a no8 in the backrow.

Always play Brown and keep the backs the same.

Anyone think this could be Marcus Smiths' chance to break into the squad? If the other options are off form or in misfiring teams could he manage that third flyhalf spot? Or will it go to cipriani?

I'd say its Cipriani and Ford with Farrell given a strait pass. Barring injuries and form those have to be the 3.
My preference is Cipriani and if a horses for courses selection then Farrell as suits or following substitution a replacement centre to impact events.

Don't dodge the question king.

As much as o don't think Itoje or lawes is a good enough 6 yappy there was some wanting them tried. Don't think that's going to be an issue presuming the new ish guys are fit ie curry underhill shields with Robshaw still there Hughes and simmonds.

If smith plays well between now and then why not the kids electric. Its not a position where we are struggling though.

Im just not convinced that he can turn it round....but i keep my fingers crossed.

As to the players...

How did Mercer go for Bath the other night? I only saw the highlights where he made one big break in tandem with Underhill...how was his overall game?

Lewington looked impressive v us on Sunday in a chase for a wing spot.

Ok. Nothing special in the game that bath looked better but ring rusty/plain careless. Carried well. He looks good enough but like Smith there's a couple of guys probably better set at present.

I'll show you mine......

You are always so reluctant to put your teams up or even just give what you think isn't sensible for jones.

Marler george cole
Launchbury Itoje
Robshaw underhill
Hughes
Youngs ford
Daly
Farrell slade
May brown.
Vunipola hartley sinckler lawes simmonds spencer Tuilagi earle

I believe sinckler is available if not williams. To be fair I could make about 10 or more changes to that and be very happy.

Have you gone for Hughes because Billy won't be fit?

Yes. Same as currently leaving out nowell Watson Joseph. Lot can obviously change. Tuilagi I've put in for sh××s and giggles if he makes it to the AIs uninjured he'll play. I do fancy cokanasiga to be a bit of a surprise pick as well. As I said you've got people like williams Kruis genge LCD shields cipriani care Robson a host of wingers you could easily choose.

Blimey.....that is sensible.....bugger we could even broadly be in agreement.
I want to be wrong but im not seeing it from Tuilagi.
I know i lead the Cipriani chorus, however I do expect him to nudge ahead of Ford.....all will be revealed over the next few weeks.
Bye the bye, it will interesting to see how Ford partakes in the inevitable dead cat bounce this weekend?

You're a bit like a brexiteer. Soundbite then no detail.

Tuilagi should be no where near the England squad at the moment he looked uncertain in defence and offers just a bosh up the middle, no guile. Devoto opposite it looked much more threatening and as for the other 3 England players you wonder why they are in the squad.

It's obviously based on past performance. As I said.if he maintains fitness I'd be surprised if h was left out. A world class 'bosh' merchant who offers a point of difference. Devoto for me isn't good enough.

I wouldn't be picking Ford or Manu personally, few others should miss out too. I'm going for:

1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Shields/Wilson
7. Curry/Underhill
8. Vunipola

9. Youngs
10. Cipriani
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Loz
14. Daly
15. Brown

16. George 17. Sinckler 18. Genge 19. Itoje 20. Underhill/Wilson 21. Robson 22. Teo 23. Solomona

Genge is broken and will not be back till the New Year.

I think Lewington will be looked at...and I think Adam Radwan will be brought into some of the "training "get togethers (he wont make the world cup squad, but will be a big player post world cup). That lad is just scintillating...and as a bonus has an exceptional defence / strength for his slight frame.

LondonTiger wrote:Genge is broken and will not be back till the New Year.

Who isn't....they're all feckin broken!

LH isn't a problem area, we have plenty of options in Ruskin, Marler etc. Shame about Genge though.

Te'o and Vunipola are injured too aren't they?

Billy should be back, not sure on Te'o.

Just read Te'o should be back too, but I wouldn't be too disappointed if we moved on from him.

Why is Sam James not being looked at...13 with size and skill

rosbif wrote:Tuilagi should be no where near the England squad at the moment he looked uncertain in defence and offers just a bosh up the middle, no guile. Devoto opposite it looked much more threatening and as for the other 3 England players you wonder why they are in the squad.

Only if thats the way hes used. He started out as a wing and played most of his rugby at 13, skinning people on the outside. Look back at the highlights from the famous trouncing of the All Blacks and tell me he was just boshing up the middle. Whilst he can flatten players in attack and defence thats partly what makes him so dangerous, defenders get rooted expecting to be steam rolled which leaves an angle for him to cut through...when used properly.
Maybe hes lost the edge of pace now but hes improved his passing and ball handling in recent times.

Is Deveto capable of tackling with both shoulders yet? That was the main reason he was never going to get anyway near the England side. I can agree that right now he maybe looks more threatening, but thats not the only consideration.

Which isnt to say I think Tuillagi should be with England, hes barely played in years and hasn't shown any confidence or form yet. But Jones has long been a fan of what Tuillai was ...so even if he has no intent to play him till hes back and firing I can understand why with so many injuries he'd want him training with the squad. I just dont have a great deal of faith that we will ever see a fully functional Manu again, which is really sad. And is it worth investing time in a guy who might break down again at any moment? (Or get arrested again)

Te'o if he is fully back is another similar and perhaps more realistic option to make the match day squads.

Johnny Williams missed the Sarries game but has looked very threatening in the preseason games.

He'll be worth keeping an eye on over the next few games (assuming he's fit)

No 7&1/2 wrote:You are always so reluctant to put your teams up or even just give what you think isn't sensible for jones.

Marler george cole
Launchbury Itoje
Robshaw underhill
Hughes
Youngs ford
Daly
Farrell slade
May brown.
Vunipola hartley sinckler lawes simmonds spencer Tuilagi earle

I believe sinckler is available if not williams. To be fair I could make about 10 or more changes to that and be very happy.

I do not understand how anybody can pick any other English lock above Lawes, the tests in SA showed how much he was missed, no other lock carries like him these days, neither Itoje or Launchbury. No other lock covers like him and no other lock is quick enough to chase down centres. He is just as good in the lineout as Itoje and better than Launchbury. He doesn't get so many tackles in close to the breakdown, but that is due to his job being to cover the wider channels where his speed can get him across to cover behind the backs, corner flagging; something our no. 8 seem to have forgotten how to do. Itoje and Lawes all the time for me.

Launchbury is our best carrying lock. Lawes gets stripped or knocks in once a game on average. Lawes is better in the lineout easily all other aspects 2nd best.
Itoje or lawes for me but Itoje I better now and will only improve.

I think we will have to disagree on that one 7&1/2 Launchbury is not a bad international by any means, but Lawes until his injury at least, was becoming one of the best locks around; anywhere. He was being touted on here last year as being that term I hate "world class" after some of his performances

Successive international managers have chosen him as first choice lock over Launchbury and last year Itoje, until the injury hit. Hopefully he is now refreshed (unlike Itoje) and ready to get back to where he was. The club website shows he has bulked up a few pounds this year and is now 18 stone plus. I hope this hasn't taken the edge of his pace.