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England Getting Four Wins in the Six Nations - A New Thread

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Post by Geordie Sat 16 Dec 2023, 7:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

2 tries for Hartley at 12 .

Fdjour decent first scrum then missed some tackles etc.
Sales two wingers Reed and Roebuck were very impressive....

Bath v Cardiff now...lots of potential England options here.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 31 Dec 2023, 8:40 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Geordie wrote:Well you can get rid of Malins for a start...

If there's a 50 man sqaud being named..Theresa good chance Furbank will be in

Who is Theresa Good, any relation to Andy?   England Getting Four Wins in the Six Nations - A New Thread - Page 5 1f600
Theresa Good is Johnny B. Goode's half-sister.

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Post by mountain man Mon 01 Jan 2024, 9:01 am

I only saw highlights of GP on TV last night but Feyi-Waboso looked very impressive. Fast, elusive and strong in tackle and with ball in hand. If he does get picked for England there are worse options. Suspect he won't and Wales will cap him anyway.
Think someone else mentioned a back 3 of him, LRZ and Adams be some attack.

Whereas Borthwick probably pick Daly, a half fit Watson and Steward.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 Jan 2024, 10:01 am

I mean I think you're half joking but yup that could be a realistic match up.

The plan presumably is going to be that the pack wins scrum penalties and our driving maul becomes better again,and the set piece has improved on the whole.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 02 Jan 2024, 10:11 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll dismiss him. He hasn't got the mental fortitude for it. He's basically Alex Goode. And given he's going for the 23 shirt there are about 4 or 5 better suited.

Exact same problems. Great at club level but not quick enough (in thought or action) or strong enough to make an impact at international level unless something major has changed since his last caps

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 02 Jan 2024, 11:20 am

lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll dismiss him. He hasn't got the mental fortitude for it. He's basically Alex Goode. And given he's going for the 23 shirt there are about 4 or 5 better suited.

Exact same problems. Great at club level but not quick enough (in thought or action) or strong enough to make an impact at international level unless something major has changed since his last caps

A number of the Saints backs were given closed season training regimes designed to bulk them up a bit, both Hendy (he has put on 5kg)and Furbank have referred to it in pieces they have done for the Saints website, Freeman and Dingwall also seem to have a bit more muscle about them now. Seems to have worked as most of the Saints backs seem to be either breaking through or driving forward over the gain line when tackled these days.
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Post by mountain man Tue 02 Jan 2024, 11:38 am

Hendy looks a real prospect, I hope he gets in initial squad. Furbank, hmm dunno. My opinion obviously affected by his time in Eng shirt previously. Yes he is playing well this season for Saints but I'm not convinced he's answer for Eng attack.
Also what position is he being looked at? 10? Not a hope for Eng. 15? I think there are better options. If he's on bench it would be in place of M Smith so that's never going to happen(unless Smith injured). Furbank in starting XV? Cannot see it.

However, can only pick on form so if he is best performing FB through to 6N then it would be daft not to consider him.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 02 Jan 2024, 1:13 pm

Feyi-Waboso, how does he qualify for England, Cardiff born, lived most of his life in Wales up until a couple of years ago, Nigerian parents, where is the English connection?
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Post by mountain man Tue 02 Jan 2024, 1:41 pm

I assume must be purely through residency?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 02 Jan 2024, 1:47 pm

Not been in England 3 years, never mind 5, only moved to England to carry out medical studies and is in his first year.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 Jan 2024, 1:56 pm

Yeah it was something I was surprised at as I had him down as Welsh. Its heritage apparently.

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Post by mountain man Tue 02 Jan 2024, 1:59 pm

So his grandparents are English or something?

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Post by Mr Bounce Tue 02 Jan 2024, 2:25 pm

So when does Borthwick announce his (hopefully more ambitious) 6 Nations Squad? Is it 15th January?

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Post by Geordie Tue 02 Jan 2024, 2:29 pm

4th (Thursday) apparently - 50 man squad to be whittled down

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Post by Mr Bounce Tue 02 Jan 2024, 2:33 pm

Geordie wrote:4th (Thursday) apparently - 50 man squad to be whittled down

Could be a very interesting set of names in there. Intriguing.

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Post by Geordie Tue 02 Jan 2024, 2:37 pm

Hes bascially picking the whole EQ Prem... Laugh

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 Jan 2024, 2:40 pm

mountain man wrote:So his grandparents are English or something?

My guess,yes.

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Post by Geordie Tue 02 Jan 2024, 8:41 pm

Hell be in Wales squad...cant see why he wouldn't be.

I think SB needs to tie down Roebuck and Fin Smith...

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Post by mountain man Wed 03 Jan 2024, 8:16 am

I think SB needs to pick players who are fit and in form. That'll do for a start.

Oh and maybe drop those whose best days were years ago. Jones in past picked on reputation and it didn't work. The old cliche class is permanent form temporary may hold some truth but if a player is known to be injury prone, getting on in rugby years then I think it's time to look to future.

I'd like to see some positive steps towards building for RWC 2027. May get a lean year or two(no change then) but they'll be hope.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Jan 2024, 8:40 am

Think I read that the normal squad get together which was held in early January in the past has been dropped to smooth things over with clubs ahead of the 6Ns so I'm not sure why the extended squad is being named tomorrow then the 6Ns later. For the fans it gives us some bones to chew over for a week or so and will be interesting to see who is in Borthwick's plans in terms of those dual qualified players; and vice versa their thoughts on who they want to play for potentially unless they quickly release press statements!

Re form vs class there's always some balance. I reckon if people really brought forward the form players of the prem there would be some trepidation that some would get absolutely slaughtered at international level.

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Post by mountain man Wed 03 Jan 2024, 8:52 am

It has to be a balance. Certain players we know will be in squad and should be. Itoje, Genge, George, Chessum Lawrence, Steward will undoubtedly be there even if their form dips. Do likes of Sinckler and Billy though deserve to be in squad?

As for dual qualified, the horse trading a bit unsavoury. It would be good if players declared who they want to play for but I suppose it's understandable they might want to keep options open. If say F Smith said he really only wants to play for Eng but doesn't get picked how would that go down in Scotland as an example should Townsend then select him.

Given there's due to be 50 players announced tomorrow I'm sure there'll be plenty to discuss.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Jan 2024, 9:56 am

I think dual qualified players sometimes just don't sit well with some people no matter what but in general a class player will allow a lot of people get over it. Having a gander on the Scottish thread and Fin seems to be being placed below the likes of Healy and Hastings....which I think would change very quickly should he declare for them and play in the 6Ns. The nature of the world means that we're going to get more and more instances where players can qualify for more than 1 country. Personally Fin is top of the cap him now list, I'd love to see Feyi-Waboso declare for us as he's going to be class and I don't want Wales to get him frankly! Roebuck I think would suit the current tactics, but I'm not sure he's in the overall class of some of our other wingers.

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Post by mountain man Wed 03 Jan 2024, 10:05 am

I've read a few articles where Feyi-Waboso has said how he'd like to play for Wales, I suspect it's where his heart is and I also think Gatland will cap him. I've not seen a lot of him play but what I have he looks the real deal. I'd be more than happy if he chose England purely from a rugby point of view.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 03 Jan 2024, 10:17 am

The guy is Welsh through and through, born in Wales, lived in Wales all his life up until 2022, even speaks some Welsh. If he chose England it would be for mercenary reasons, I want players that will bleed for their country if required, not ones that are just eying up the money. If he regarded England as his home, that’s different, but I very much doubt he does.
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Post by mountain man Wed 03 Jan 2024, 10:20 am

Yep I agree W-P-I, as I said from purely a rugby point of view he'd be great for Eng but really he should play for Wales.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Jan 2024, 10:33 am

I think it's up to him. He qualifies for us, we should be trying to get him. No one is able to see into the thoughts and souls of all the players we have. I'm sure we've had 'mercenaries' who have given every last sinew and guys who have qualified for us alone go through the motions at times.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Jan 2024, 10:38 am

Eyeing money or completely dedicated to being capped by England?

'‘I’ve not really made too much of a decision about it because I haven’t had to yet,’ he said. ‘I would love to play international rugby. At this point, I have not had to worry too much about it. That’s a good position to be in.’'

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Post by mountain man Wed 03 Jan 2024, 10:55 am

Hedging his bets I'd say!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Jan 2024, 11:07 am

"As far as I'm concerned at the moment it's all chatter and at the moment I don't want to entertain the chatter.

It's up to the coaches whether they decide if I get called up or not.

It would be a huge privilege to get called up. I would love to be called up but there's a lot of my game that I need to work on to be considered an international."

I'm not sure I see too much difference. Hedging bets, yeah the guys are professionals.

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Post by mountain man Wed 03 Jan 2024, 11:27 am

Bearing in mind this is from Wales Online so probably complete fabrication but anyway :

"While his superb performance will undoubtedly see speculation around his international future grow ahead of the upcoming Six Nations, Feyi-Waboso recently addressed his allegiances, telling WalesOnline that he would "love to be a Welsh international.

However, he insists he still has room to improve before he gets to that level, explaining: "Realistically, I know there are parts of my game that I need to work on to even be close to being on that international level. It’s more about working on my weaknesses and strengthening my strong points.

"I think [my ambition to play for Wales] is very superficial actually. Obviously I would love for that to happen but I feel I need to get some high-level game time under my belt first - but hopefully at some point, yeah."

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Jan 2024, 12:35 pm

Sure it won't be. Shows he's up for playing for either at the moment with the quotes above yours the later version. Similar to Fin who has said he wants to play for England and has then said he would play for Scotland. Think that's completely fair enough.

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Post by Geordie Wed 03 Jan 2024, 12:48 pm

He'll play for Wales...ill be utterly amazed if he doesnt. Wales arent gonna lose him...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 03 Jan 2024, 1:36 pm

I'd admit it would take a good bit of fortune for us to get him. Just don't think we have the pulling power. But hope Im wrong.

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Post by mountain man Wed 03 Jan 2024, 2:04 pm

Just listened to latest Rugby Union podcast and Ashton and Care both think Gatland will tie him to Wales.

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Post by nlpnlp Wed 03 Jan 2024, 9:34 pm

People seem to get very hung up about players ages. Both Dan Cole and Danny Care performed well at the World Cup 'even though' they were both 36. I think Steve Borthwick should just pick on performance, if you start thinking "How old will player A be at the next World Cup" you ignore the importance of the next match which is the one you need to concentrate on winning. One of the many things I think Eddie Jones was guilty of was not valuing International rugby other than the World Cup. I would like to see England go with their strongest team to win the 2024 6 Nations and then take it from there. With injuries and unavailability new players are going to get their opportunities in the squad.

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Post by Rugby Fan Thu 04 Jan 2024, 12:13 am

Times report says the England players unanimously voted to ditch the RPA as agent for future contract negotiations. They have agreed on a different agent.

Not clear what the implications are, though it's apparently very bad news for the RPA, who rely on revenue from that representation.

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Post by Geordie Thu 04 Jan 2024, 8:20 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd admit it would take a good bit of fortune for us to get him. Just don't think we have the pulling power. But hope Im wrong.

Not about the pulling power...hes fricken Werlsh through and through...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Jan 2024, 8:29 am

Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd admit it would take a good bit of fortune for us to get him. Just don't think we have the pulling power. But hope Im wrong.

Not about the pulling power...hes fricken Werlsh through and through...

And qualifies for England.

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Post by mountain man Thu 04 Jan 2024, 8:36 am

nlpnlp wrote:People seem to get very hung up about players ages.  Both Dan Cole and Danny Care performed well at the World Cup 'even though' they were both 36.  I think Steve Borthwick should just pick on performance, if you start thinking "How old will player A be at the next World Cup" you ignore the importance of the next match which is the one you need to concentrate on winning.  One of the many things I think Eddie Jones was guilty of was not valuing International rugby other than the World Cup.  I would like to see England go with their strongest team to win the 2024 6 Nations and then take it from there.  With injuries and unavailability new players are going to get their opportunities in the squad.

But it's not just age. Usually not always an older player will be more injury prone or have long standing niggles.
I agree pick best players available who are fit and in form crucially.
England though desperately need a rebuild given how poor they have been for 3-4 years. In doing said rebuild that will almost inevitably mean phasing out the players who aren't able to maintain fitness and those who are unlikely to be available in 2027.

However, like most things in life it has to be a balance. If Borthwick picks purely the best 23 to compete in 2024 6N will those 23 be the ones who will play in 2027, almost certainly not. So, does he therefore start right now and pick players to develop within the team to take Eng forward or concentrate on next tournament ie 6N. That's crux of it and what he will need to sort out. 4 years sounds a long time but it will go quickly so players will need to get Int experience over next few years to enable team to be competitive in 2027, assuming that is Borthwicks goal (along of course with other tournaments along way).

Edit: I'll give an example of what "could" happen if purely pick on current form ignoring everything else. Let's say everyones favourite no8 Billy is playing superbly and was one of best 8s in run up to 6N, does he play for England? Or do past variables in form and perfornamce plus fact he's unlikely to make 2027 squad mean he shouldn't? It's a tricky one. Personally I wouldn't play him again for Eng but it does show it's not cut and dried. Who'd be a selector, damined if you do and damned if you don't....


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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Jan 2024, 8:48 am

mountain man wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:People seem to get very hung up about players ages.  Both Dan Cole and Danny Care performed well at the World Cup 'even though' they were both 36.  I think Steve Borthwick should just pick on performance, if you start thinking "How old will player A be at the next World Cup" you ignore the importance of the next match which is the one you need to concentrate on winning.  One of the many things I think Eddie Jones was guilty of was not valuing International rugby other than the World Cup.  I would like to see England go with their strongest team to win the 2024 6 Nations and then take it from there.  With injuries and unavailability new players are going to get their opportunities in the squad.

But it's not just age. Usually not always an older player will be more injury prone or have long standing niggles.
I agree pick best players available who are fit and in form crucially.
England though desperately need a rebuild given how poor they have been for 3-4 years. In doing said rebuild that will almost inevitably mean phasing out the players who aren't able to maintain fitness and those who are unlikely to be available in 2027.

However, like most things in life it has to be a balance. If Borthwick picks purely the best 23 to compete in 2024 6N will those 23 be the ones who will play in 2027, almost certainly not. So, does he therefore start right now and pick players to develop within the team to take Eng forward or concentrate on next tournament ie 6N. That's crux of it and what he will need to sort out. 4 years sounds a long time but it will go quickly so players will need to get Int experience over next few years to enable team to be competitive in 2027, assuming that is Borthwicks goal (along of course with other tournaments along way).

TBF Borthwick made it known early doors he was not about to sacrifice any games for the good of the WC. Clearly though at present some of the more inexperienced players are the better options as of today let alone tomorrow. That's even if we remain with the existing tactics and not moving to something more akin to the better performing prem sides.

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Post by Geordie Thu 04 Jan 2024, 8:59 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd admit it would take a good bit of fortune for us to get him. Just don't think we have the pulling power. But hope Im wrong.

Not about the pulling power...hes fricken Werlsh through and through...

And qualifies for England.
On a technicality, that shouldnt even be a route these days.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Jan 2024, 9:05 am

And yet it is Geordie, and we can't decide on a whim who gets to use the rule and who doesn't. He qualifies for us and so it's up to Borthwick to persuade him to play for us. As I've said I don't think he will be able to but if he does it's a perfectly reasonable way for him to qualify (the same as Bra Barritt, Hamish Watson etc etc etc).

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Post by mountain man Thu 04 Jan 2024, 9:10 am

Exactly. Does anyone really think DvM is Scottish but he's been one of their best players for years. Those sort of players definitely don't sit right with me but if in in current laws he can play then so be it. Rightly or wrongly.

Anyway, I strongly suspect Gatland will pick Feyi-Waboso so it won't be an issue.

Let's see who makes squad today.

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Post by Geordie Thu 04 Jan 2024, 9:16 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:And yet it is Geordie, and we can't decide on a whim who gets to use the rule and who doesn't. He qualifies for us and so it's up to Borthwick to persuade him to play for us. As I've said I don't think he will be able to but if he does it's a perfectly reasonable way for him to qualify (the same as Bra Barritt, Hamish Watson etc etc etc).
I dont think SB will.. i think Roebuck Murley etc..

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Jan 2024, 9:26 am

Will want to or will be successful? As the reports suggest England have approached him.

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Post by Geordie Thu 04 Jan 2024, 9:29 am

All a farce. The whole thing.

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Post by mountain man Thu 04 Jan 2024, 9:32 am

Borthwick, if he considers IFW to be good enough will undoubtedly sound him out, as he should. If he gets named today then that will give indication of who he wants to play for. Likewise I'd be amazed if the WRU/Gatland etc haven't done similar.

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Post by mountain man Thu 04 Jan 2024, 9:33 am

Geordie wrote:All a farce. The whole thing.

Sport often is.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Jan 2024, 9:35 am

mountain man wrote:Borthwick, if he considers IFW to be good enough will undoubtedly sound him out, as he should. If he gets named today then that will give indication of who he wants to play for. Likewise I'd be amazed if the WRU/Gatland etc haven't done similar.

Well unless the players then pull out if another team come calling! Could be like going to your boss to let them know you've been offered a new job; focuses the mind!

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Post by mountain man Thu 04 Jan 2024, 9:49 am

Well Odogwu did just that. I assume most Int coaches sound out prospective players to get an indication of intention should they be selected in a squad. Townsend has likely had contact with Fin Smith for example.

None of us are party to what really goes on but it's fair to assume that's how it goes.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Jan 2024, 9:53 am

mountain man wrote:Well Odogwu did just that. I assume most Int coaches  sound out prospective players to get an indication of intention should they be selected in a squad. Townsend has likely had contact with Fin Smith for example.

None of us are party to what really goes on but it's fair to assume that's how it goes.

Yeah Townsend has already apparently guaranteed Smith a match day place in the 6Ns, so that's a negotiation point Smith can use with Borthwick, guarantee the same thing else you'll lose me.

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