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IRFU to spend even more money on their wages.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:15 pm

First topic message reminder :

Irish rugby bosses will hand the four provinces an extra €3.2 million (£2.27m) a year to combat the threat of France's big-spending superpowers.

Philip Browne, chief executive of the Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU), admitted the four provinces are "all struggling" to keep pace with their French counterparts.

The IRFU reported a surplus in excess of €8.7m (£6.18m) owing to ticket sales, new broadcasting deals and Ireland's two-straight Six Nations titles.

Browne admitted the IRFU have a duty to keep raising investment into Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster where possible.

"At professional game level it allows to start putting a little bit more money into the academy system and the elite player pool," said Browne.

"What we're trying to do with David Nucifora [performance director] is to try and drive the high-performance system through the age groups so that we have contact with kids at an earlier age.

"It obviously allows us to put a bit more money into the provinces who are all struggling to some extent in terms of financial pressures that are coming to bear because of the money in France.

"We're trying to make them financially viable and sustainable but at the same time we've got to try to put competitive teams on the park. So it's about all those things, it's really around the high-performance system and player contracts where that money goes."

In the 2013-14 season, the IRFU posted a surplus of €7.3m (£5.9m). A second-straight surplus leaves the organisation in rude health ahead of next month's Rugby World Cup.

Oh, and just to add a link about spending as our Irish friends on here like us to provide such things, here is the IRFU annual report:-

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU ... 201314.pdf
http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU ... 014_15.pdf

Looks like the Irish will be spending the highest in Europe now.


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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:47 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Beyond thick

aha! Phils other half! Welcome back! Very Happy

Aggghhh another dweller from under the bridge. Troll
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Post by Notch Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:52 pm

To get this debate back on topic, can anyone address the questions I raise in this post?

Notch wrote:The problem is, is its pointed out that the IRFU have been able to make more money available for wages and the WRU haven't/won't- and this is just put forward as a 'bad thing' with no real clarity of thinking as to why. It seems more obvious that the bad thing is the poor management of Welsh Rugby that has led to their current financial impasse, which of course has nothing to do with the Irish provinces.

The implicit suggestion is that the Irish provinces should being themselves down to the Welsh salary levels despite the fact that that has been a disaster for the regions and let several of your best players move overseas. Even now, the Dragons are seeking permission to sell their best player for around £150k due to their financial situation. Why is that level of funding of the regions something we should emulate? It needs to be explained why the IRFU should seriously handicap themselves in terms of what they spend on players wages because the WRU and the regions are now suffering the effects of being poorly managed.

I am a massive fan of salary caps in general and in an ideal world we would compete on an even footing in European rugby across all Six Nations with the same number of foreign players per squad and the same salary cap, which would be rigorously enforced. I think that the English salary cap is a good idea and I am sad that is being undermined. The French salary cap is so high as to make no difference and allegedly big French clubs are extremely capable of supplementing salaries through other avenues anyway.

To ensure the continued success of Irish Rugby we need to a) be able to retain our best players for the purposes of competing in test rugby and b) continue to be competitive in the European Cup.

Those are the two drivers that determine the amount of money we spend on wages, because without doing those two things our business model will be in trouble. Any salary cap cannot compromise those two essential objectives for Irish Rugby. Thats what we need to do to survive and prosper in the currently very broken, very unideal world of European Rugby.

Can an argument be made as to why a) we shouldn't do that and b) why Pro12 rugby would benefit from Irish Rugby being as weak as Welsh Rugby?

I would take the position that the more money is spent keeping the best homegrown players from the Celtic Nations in those nations, the better. I would love to see competent management of the regions and the co-operation of the WRU bring Welsh spending on wages up to Irish levels. Bringing our spending down just means we're all in crisis together. Which just benefits nobody.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:08 pm

Phil, Leinster don't have to pay anything for the redevelopment because it's not our stadium. It wasn't even Leinster who decided to redevelope it.

It costs a huge amount to rent out the RDS and Leinster don't even keep the money from the sales of drink and food on matchday.

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Post by ME-109 Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:12 pm

Notch wrote:To get this debate back on topic, can anyone address the questions I raise in this post?

Notch wrote:The problem is, is its pointed out that the IRFU have been able to make more money available for wages and the WRU haven't/won't- and this is just put forward as a 'bad thing' with no real clarity of thinking as to why. It seems more obvious that the bad thing is the poor management of Welsh Rugby that has led to their current financial impasse, which of course has nothing to do with the Irish provinces.

The implicit suggestion is that the Irish provinces should being themselves down to the Welsh salary levels despite the fact that that has been a disaster for the regions and let several of your best players move overseas. Even now, the Dragons are seeking permission to sell their best player for around £150k due to their financial situation. Why is that level of funding of the regions something we should emulate? It needs to be explained why the IRFU should seriously handicap themselves in terms of what they spend on players wages because the WRU and the regions are now suffering the effects of being poorly managed.

I am a massive fan of salary caps in general and in an ideal world we would compete on an even footing in European rugby across all Six Nations with the same number of foreign players per squad and the same salary cap, which would be rigorously enforced. I think that the English salary cap is a good idea and I am sad that is being undermined. The French salary cap is so high as to make no difference and allegedly big French clubs are extremely capable of supplementing salaries through other avenues anyway.

To ensure the continued success of Irish Rugby we need to a) be able to retain our best players for the purposes of competing in test rugby and b) continue to be competitive in the European Cup.

Those are the two drivers that determine the amount of money we spend on wages, because without doing those two things our business model will be in trouble. Any salary cap cannot compromise those two essential objectives for Irish Rugby. Thats what we need to do to survive and prosper in the currently very broken, very unideal world of European Rugby.

Can an argument be made as to why a) we shouldn't do that and b) why Pro12 rugby would benefit from Irish Rugby being as weak as Welsh Rugby?

I would take the position that the more money is spent keeping the best homegrown players from the Celtic Nations in those nations, the better. I would love to see competent management of the regions and the co-operation of the WRU bring Welsh spending on wages up to Irish levels. Bringing our spending down just means we're all in crisis together. Which just benefits nobody.

Great post Notch. Intelligent, raises interesting points and some good questions. Not a hope in hell of getting a clear answer though

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:54 pm

I can't even get any names of these supposed fantastic refs in the other leagues. Notch has no hope of a reply here.

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Post by wayne Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:14 pm

ME-109 wrote:
Notch wrote:To get this debate back on topic, can anyone address the questions I raise in this post?

Notch wrote:The problem is, is its pointed out that the IRFU have been able to make more money available for wages and the WRU haven't/won't- and this is just put forward as a 'bad thing' with no real clarity of thinking as to why. It seems more obvious that the bad thing is the poor management of Welsh Rugby that has led to their current financial impasse, which of course has nothing to do with the Irish provinces.

The implicit suggestion is that the Irish provinces should being themselves down to the Welsh salary levels despite the fact that that has been a disaster for the regions and let several of your best players move overseas. Even now, the Dragons are seeking permission to sell their best player for around £150k due to their financial situation. Why is that level of funding of the regions something we should emulate? It needs to be explained why the IRFU should seriously handicap themselves in terms of what they spend on players wages because the WRU and the regions are now suffering the effects of being poorly managed.

I am a massive fan of salary caps in general and in an ideal world we would compete on an even footing in European rugby across all Six Nations with the same number of foreign players per squad and the same salary cap, which would be rigorously enforced. I think that the English salary cap is a good idea and I am sad that is being undermined. The French salary cap is so high as to make no difference and allegedly big French clubs are extremely capable of supplementing salaries through other avenues anyway.

To ensure the continued success of Irish Rugby we need to a) be able to retain our best players for the purposes of competing in test rugby and b) continue to be competitive in the European Cup.

Those are the two drivers that determine the amount of money we spend on wages, because without doing those two things our business model will be in trouble. Any salary cap cannot compromise those two essential objectives for Irish Rugby. Thats what we need to do to survive and prosper in the currently very broken, very unideal world of European Rugby.

Can an argument be made as to why a) we shouldn't do that and b) why Pro12 rugby would benefit from Irish Rugby being as weak as Welsh Rugby?

I would take the position that the more money is spent keeping the best homegrown players from the Celtic Nations in those nations, the better. I would love to see competent management of the regions and the co-operation of the WRU bring Welsh spending on wages up to Irish levels. Bringing our spending down just means we're all in crisis together. Which just benefits nobody.

Great post Notch. Intelligent, raises interesting points and some good questions. Not a hope in hell of getting a clear answer though
ME, You'll get a clear answer from me, I have no problem in saying I want the same from the WRU as your Provinces are getting from the IRFU, in actual fact the WRU has increased money to the Regions in the past year through the Participation Agreement, whether any of the money has actually filtered through yet is open to question.
Do I want the Provinces to have their Finances brought down to the Regions level and therefore increasing the difference to the French and the English levels OR the Regions increasing ours up to your level, well only an idiot would WANT the former.
Let me just add I don't agree with your synopsis that ALL the Regions have been mismanaged, we (Ospreys) have been very well managed, in particular up to 2011 we were IMO getting better on a regular basis and considering we had only been in existence 7 or 8 years our record was remarkable, it was only because of the total indifference of the WRU towards the Regions and our subsequent imposed cap, that has seen us (Ospreys) fall down the pecking order, we have had 6 new sponsorship deals all to do with adverts on our kit this season. I believe things will improve for us gradually over the next few years, with our Academy churning out some excellent prospects and an improving financial situation we'll challenge better in a few years

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Post by Notch Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:15 pm

I hope so wayne. When you put all national allegiance aside the Pro12 needs to have strong teams from every nation OK
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Post by wayne Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:27 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I can't even get any names of these supposed fantastic refs in the other leagues. Notch has no hope of a reply here.
Leinster, I've said this before and no doubt will say it again, apart from the ridiculous display by Pratterson in our game against Ulster last season, the worse Team of officials I've seen in many a year was the English trio in our match against Racing Metro last season, the Ref was JP Doyle and one of the T/J was the IRB International Referee of a few years ago Dave Pearson, the offside law was totally ignored as was the put in to both the scrum and lineout.
I do believe the standard of Refereeing in the Pro 12 as well as the other NH Leagues is quite poor, but going by last weekends exhibition, is the SH any better ? I'm not like other contributors to this board who watch WALL TO WALL rugby, I actually have a life so I wouldn't know if the SH is any better.

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Post by Guest Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:00 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Beyond thick

aha! Phils other half! Welcome back! Very Happy

Aggghhh another dweller from under the bridge.  Troll

Can't beat em, join em devil

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:50 pm

Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Beyond thick

aha! Phils other half! Welcome back! Very Happy

Aggghhh another dweller from under the bridge.  Troll

Can't beat em, join em devil

That my feeling Hug
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:40 pm

Wayne, that is exactly the point I was trying make. Reffing is a world wide problem, not a Pro 12 problem like some here would have you believe. It is a very tough game to ref (perhaps the toughest in sport)

Good luck for the season anyway wayne.

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:43 am

SecretFly wrote:Transparent countries.........  England and France???

I think you once told me you do read and keep up to date on rugby stories.  Nothing you ever say concerning the 'integrity' of the English and French systems leads me to believe you ever read a word though.

The winner of the AP last season and one or two more were actively paying more to players than they were declaring.  The official forms said they were within the rules of their League but the payments seem to have bubbled over the top of the forms Wink
The French -- well Racing will only be paying Carter 500,000 allegedly...but he'll somehow manage to come out still with a guaranteed 1 million per year.  Neat!  Plus all the rumours going last year and into this one about shady dealings on the 'performance' front......


Don't talk to me about transparency in England and France, Phil.  I'm not about to remotely believe it.

You seem to be confusing salary caps with legally documented wage bills paid by the companies.

A debate is helped by both parties being able to follow the thrust of the point being discussed. Conflating it, misrepresenting it or being unable to follow it lead to posts like yours.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:46 am

Munchkin wrote:

So, instead of coming up with the evidence to back up your nonsense (obviously you can't. There isn't any), you try and hide this fact with waffle, sprinkled with abuse, in the hope that your nonsense is lost. Obfuscation and distraction when you have been found out.

Just like the last time when you did a runner Very Happy

I gave you a question to highlight a major difference between the IRFU and WRU. I asked you why you'd removed PRW vs the Provinces (the thrust of the discussion) from your replies.

You answered neither.

I know what all four Welsh teams spend on salaries. The same cannot be said for the four Irish teams. If this basic fact is beyond your comprehension then I can see why you'd write that final sentence - it's because you lack any self awareness.

Now, if you want to keep the discussion to the first two sentences of the paragraph above (the thrust of the discussion) then hopefully we can back on track and you can stop acting like an excitable puppy who lacks the comprehension to realise that he's just peed down his leg.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:47 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:Beyond thick

Not thick, but disingenuous. That's even worse.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:47 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Transparent countries.........  England and France???

I think you once told me you do read and keep up to date on rugby stories.  Nothing you ever say concerning the 'integrity' of the English and French systems leads me to believe you ever read a word though.

The winner of the AP last season and one or two more were actively paying more to players than they were declaring.  The official forms said they were within the rules of their League but the payments seem to have bubbled over the top of the forms Wink
The French -- well Racing will only be paying Carter 500,000 allegedly...but he'll somehow manage to come out still with a guaranteed 1 million per year.  Neat!  Plus all the rumours going last year and into this one about shady dealings on the 'performance' front......


Don't talk to me about transparency in England and France, Phil.  I'm not about to remotely believe it.

If they were not transparent about these things though, you would not have known them.

Ha! Fantastic.

Totally smashed that stupid post. Well done, sir.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:50 am

SecretFly wrote:
PhilBB wrote:

Why should the WRU invest in its supply chain? That's the question you've just asked. Have a think about that for a moment as it is quite an incredible question.

You're being tripped up on your own logic, as always happens when someone tries to present a holier-than-thou attitude after a lifetime of sin Wink

Nice sentence above.  Try applying IRFU to it and it works as smoothly....

Finally, you're seeing the light.

Again, you're missing the point. Are you doing it on purpose like that munchkin clown? I think so.

I appreciate why the IRFU invest in its supply chain. I say good on them for doing so. The points that you seem incapable of understanding are that the WRU did not and that there is no transparency in that Irish investment.

The lack of that transparency is the point of the discussion. The IRFU can skew the PrO'12, they can reward failure and they prevent the league being won by teams successful from their own merits.

These are the issues being discussed. Is there any chance that our Irish contributors can actually understand these and stick to them? Let's hope so.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:52 am

SecretFly wrote:

About what?  Do you have the contracts now that I've looked for concerning Carter? Wink  Transparency?   Do you have the minutes of the meetings that supposedly wanted to keep the AP Cap Scandal undercover - for the good of the game. Whistle ?  Transparency?  Do you have details from the specificed French Club on the accusations made by the ex French player last year, or details of the ongoing investigation into the Pharmacy stores in Toulon?  Transparency?

Now you seem to be asking for unproven allegations to be in the public domain and the contract details of individuals.

All because the IRFU don't let us know how much Ulster's wage bill is.

Can you not see the total difference between the two? Honestly? I think that you can and that you're being completely disingenuous.

Why behave like that?
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:53 am

Sin é wrote:
PhilBB wrote:

The WRU pay £150k to each of the four towards academy costs that are typically 5 or 6 times that. The WRU pay a significant sum into the grassroots of the game for which very little translates into the professional game.

So Pro players come fully formed out of the womb in Wales. They don't learn to play in their local clubs. Fascinating.

Why did you miss the bit about the Pro Team investment in their Academies?

I've got three Irish contributors here who cannot comprehend what is being written down or cannot remember what was written even on a previous page.

Is this a conspiracy of being disingenuous? Or is chunky correct? There can be no alternatives.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:57 am

Notch wrote:To get this debate back on topic, can anyone address the questions I raise in this post?



Yes, you have it all wrong.

The reason the WRU didn't invest under Lewis is because he wanted to kill off the Pro Teams and to take them over himself.

There is no implicit suggestion that the IRFU should reduce its spend on wages. None. None whatsoever from me, at least.

How can you be a massive fan of salary caps when they are clearly unenforceable? The PRL incident should teach you that and even Mourad has lodged a case with the EU about the French cap, despite that having so many holes.

As for foreign players - there is already a cap. Two. You cannot block what you consider 'foreigners' if they have EU working rights. Rugby isn't above the law of the land (see above for further confirmation of that).

The point about Irish rugby is that the performance of the four teams is skewed by the IRFU. The IRFU has ensured success by spending more than others. Once these two fundamental points are accepted then we can move on.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:57 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Phil, Leinster don't have to pay anything for the redevelopment because it's not our stadium. It wasn't even Leinster who decided to redevelope it.

It costs a huge amount to rent out the RDS and Leinster don't even keep the money from the sales of drink and food on matchday.

How much does it cost?
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:58 am

ME-109 wrote:

Great post Notch. Intelligent, raises interesting points and some good questions. Not a hope in hell of getting a clear answer though

It seems that you are the runt of a bad litter.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:59 am

wayne wrote:
ME, You'll get a clear answer from me, I have no problem in saying I want the same from the WRU as your Provinces are getting from the IRFU, in actual fact the WRU has increased money to the Regions in the past year through the Participation Agreement, whether any of the money has actually filtered through yet is open to question.
Do I want the Provinces to have their Finances brought down to the Regions level and therefore increasing the difference to the French and the English levels OR the Regions increasing ours up to your level, well only an idiot would WANT the former.
Let me just add I don't agree with your synopsis that ALL the Regions have been mismanaged, we (Ospreys) have been very well managed, in particular up to 2011 we were IMO getting better on a regular basis and considering we had only been in existence 7 or 8 years our record was remarkable, it was only because of the total indifference of the WRU towards the Regions and our subsequent imposed cap, that has seen us (Ospreys) fall down the pecking order, we have had 6 new sponsorship deals all to do with adverts on our kit this season. I believe things will improve for us gradually over the next few years, with our Academy churning out some excellent prospects and an improving financial situation we'll challenge better in a few years

The WRU didn't increase the money to the Pro Teams in this RSA. It just offered some more for NDCs, which required PRW to stump up 40%.
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Post by ME-109 Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:15 am

Notch wrote:To get this debate back on topic, can anyone address the questions I raise in this post?

Notch wrote:The problem is, is its pointed out that the IRFU have been able to make more money available for wages and the WRU haven't/won't- and this is just put forward as a 'bad thing' with no real clarity of thinking as to why. It seems more obvious that the bad thing is the poor management of Welsh Rugby that has led to their current financial impasse, which of course has nothing to do with the Irish provinces.

The implicit suggestion is that the Irish provinces should being themselves down to the Welsh salary levels despite the fact that that has been a disaster for the regions and let several of your best players move overseas. Even now, the Dragons are seeking permission to sell their best player for around £150k due to their financial situation. Why is that level of funding of the regions something we should emulate? It needs to be explained why the IRFU should seriously handicap themselves in terms of what they spend on players wages because the WRU and the regions are now suffering the effects of being poorly managed.

I am a massive fan of salary caps in general and in an ideal world we would compete on an even footing in European rugby across all Six Nations with the same number of foreign players per squad and the same salary cap, which would be rigorously enforced. I think that the English salary cap is a good idea and I am sad that is being undermined. The French salary cap is so high as to make no difference and allegedly big French clubs are extremely capable of supplementing salaries through other avenues anyway.

To ensure the continued success of Irish Rugby we need to a) be able to retain our best players for the purposes of competing in test rugby and b) continue to be competitive in the European Cup.

Those are the two drivers that determine the amount of money we spend on wages, because without doing those two things our business model will be in trouble. Any salary cap cannot compromise those two essential objectives for Irish Rugby. Thats what we need to do to survive and prosper in the currently very broken, very unideal world of European Rugby.

Can an argument be made as to why a) we shouldn't do that and b) why Pro12 rugby would benefit from Irish Rugby being as weak as Welsh Rugby?

I would take the position that the more money is spent keeping the best homegrown players from the Celtic Nations in those nations, the better. I would love to see competent management of the regions and the co-operation of the WRU bring Welsh spending on wages up to Irish levels. Bringing our spending down just means we're all in crisis together. Which just benefits nobody.

Answers please Phil

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:16 am

ME-109 wrote:

Answers please Phil

Thanks for proving my point that a number of contributors can't even read a few posts back.

Well done you.
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Post by wayne Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:16 am

PhilBB wrote:
wayne wrote:
ME, You'll get a clear answer from me, I have no problem in saying I want the same from the WRU as your Provinces are getting from the IRFU, in actual fact the WRU has increased money to the Regions in the past year through the Participation Agreement, whether any of the money has actually filtered through yet is open to question.
Do I want the Provinces to have their Finances brought down to the Regions level and therefore increasing the difference to the French and the English levels OR the Regions increasing ours up to your level, well only an idiot would WANT the former.
Let me just add I don't agree with your synopsis that ALL the Regions have been mismanaged, we (Ospreys) have been very well managed, in particular up to 2011 we were IMO getting better on a regular basis and considering we had only been in existence 7 or 8 years our record was remarkable, it was only because of the total indifference of the WRU towards the Regions and our subsequent imposed cap, that has seen us (Ospreys) fall down the pecking order, we have had 6 new sponsorship deals all to do with adverts on our kit this season. I believe things will improve for us gradually over the next few years, with our Academy churning out some excellent prospects and an improving financial situation we'll challenge better in a few years

The WRU didn't increase the money to the Pro Teams in this RSA. It just offered some more for NDCs, which required PRW to stump up 40%.
Wrong, to say they didn't receive anything out of signing the RSA is as you say disingenuous, they received an ex gratia payment of IIRC of £500,000, would they have received that if they hadn't signed the RSA, the answer is no, and the Regions also gained by NOT having to pay the 60% wages of the DC PLAYERS

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:19 am

wayne wrote:
Wrong, to say they didn't receive anything out of signing the RSA is as you say disingenuous, they received an ex gratia payment of IIRC of £500,000, would they have received that if they hadn't signed the RSA, the answer is no, and the Regions also gained by NOT having to pay the 60% wages of the DC PLAYERS

The signing on fee? I guess you could classify that as more money, in all fairness, yes.

As for the 60%, that's an interesting argument. Did any of the four cut their wage bill by the 60% of the NDC they enjoy or did they maintain (or even increase) their wage bill beyond the 60%? I think therein lies the answer.

Certainly with Warburton, it wasn't 60% saved. As for the others that started in March, it will be interesting to see how those ones play out.

And now with Roger gone, and his original draft being ripped up after he was given his notice, it will be interesting to see if there is another tranche of these contracts on offer.
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Post by Chunky Norwich Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:55 am

Can someone please answer this to show that the WRU and IRFU are equal in their transparancy. Thanks.

how much does the IRFU pay for player wages and how much does the WRU pay for player wages.

lets not forget:


Munchkin wrote: your claim that WRU is more transparent than IRFU is hilarious and ironic

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Post by Notch Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:21 pm

PhilBB wrote:The point about Irish rugby is that the performance of the four teams is skewed by the IRFU. The IRFU has ensured success by spending more than others. Once these two fundamental points are accepted then we can move on.

And... so what? Is that meant to be a bad thing? This is what I don't get... why the bitterness, the angst over this? We have earned a certain amount of money which then allows us to spend more money. If the Welsh could do the same, I'd be happy. Were I a senior figure in the IRFU I would actually agree to limit our spending to a level where you caught up with us- if the Welsh were our main competitors on and off the pitch.

That's the flawed part of the analysis here I feel; the complaint is we Welsh can't compete with Irish spending! Well, we're too busy trying to compete with French spending to have time to worry about the Welsh. Test rugby and the European Cup make far more money for the IRFU than the Pro12, and staying competitive and selling tickets in those are the only way a nation the size of Ireland, Wales or Scotland can generate enough income to prevent being outbid for our best players by big French clubs. Of course we need to continue to grow the Pro12 as well, but like any business we can't neglect our biggest sources of income. What we need to ensure is that we stay competitive on and off the field so we can keep our best players in Ireland, so we can mould a successful test team. That is the ultimate aspiration and objective of rugby in Ireland.

I'm a massive fan of salary caps in theory because I believe a level playing field is best for sport as a business- the more even a competition, the more teams have a chance to genuinely compete, the more exciting it is and the better the product is. Unrestrained spending tends to result in a small number of teams becoming dominant and that is what we are seeing. However we don't have the power to generate a level playing field with salary caps as the French clubs, our main competitors in terms of wages off the pitch and on the pitch in the European Cup, are not amenable to any idea of a pan-European salary cap and want to outspend everyone else. So we are forced to pay more in wages to keep up with them.

In other words, I'm baffled why all the bitterness and angst and hatred is directed at the Irish, who are in the middle of the food chain, and not those at the top of the food chain who are distorting the market. If anything, the fact we have been able to retain more of our best players and survive as a business in the face of that kind of big money that exists in France should represent an aspiration for Welsh Rugby; if we can do it, it's not impossible for you to do it too, if your Union and your regions start working together rather than at cross-purposes.

So now we can move on. What do we move onto? It seems like this is just about being bitter about a system which has been more successful than your own. I cannot find any legitimate complaint on your part. I sympathise with the plight of Welsh rugby, but do not understand why the damaging effect of your own internal squabbles leads may Welsh fans to heap scorn upon the Irish. Surely we are more of an example to be followed than a boogeyman to be scapegoated for everything.
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Post by Guest Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:32 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

So, instead of coming up with the evidence to back up your nonsense (obviously you can't. There isn't any), you try and hide this fact with waffle, sprinkled with abuse, in the hope that your nonsense is lost. Obfuscation and distraction when you have been found out.

Just like the last time when you did a runner Very Happy

I gave you a question to highlight a major difference between the IRFU and WRU. I asked you why you'd removed PRW vs the Provinces (the thrust of the discussion) from your replies.

You answered neither.

I know what all four Welsh teams spend on salaries. The same cannot be said for the four Irish teams. If this basic fact is beyond your comprehension then I can see why you'd write that final sentence - it's because you lack any self awareness.

Now, if you want to keep the discussion to the first two sentences of the paragraph above (the thrust of the discussion) then hopefully we can back on track and you can stop acting like an excitable puppy who lacks the comprehension to realise that he's just peed down his leg.

It was you that entered the WRU and IRFU transparency into the debate, not me, and I pointed out that they are both as transparent as each other.
It was me that asked you to highlight the gap in transparency between the Regions and the Provinces. Rather than answer the question you reply with more obfuscation.
If you know the wages the players are getting, then post those figures here. You are the one that has claimed to know the wages of the Provinces. Are you backing down from that claim now?
You have made two claims. One on the IRFU and WRU. You were wrong. The other, between the Regions and the Provinces, you claim to know how much is spent on salaries. My question to you was how much is spent on player wages. So post a breakdown of those wages here, and post solid evidence that the Provinces are less transparent than the Regions. You won't because you can't.

You have been caught out, and you know it. If you want to deny this, then post the evidence to back up your claim. Not the usual waffle, as above, in your attempt at avoiding the questions.


Last edited by Munchkin on Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:38 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Can someone please answer this to show that the WRU and IRFU are equal in their transparancy. Thanks.

how much does the IRFU pay for player wages and how much does the WRU pay for player wages.

lets not forget:


Munchkin wrote: your claim that WRU is more transparent than IRFU is hilarious and ironic

That's the question that Phil is yet to answer! Ask him.

There is no difference. A simple look at both the sites will confirm this.

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Post by Guest Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:45 pm

Hey Chunky/Phil, what's your thoughts on the AP salary cap fiasco? All good with you?
What's your thoughts on how transparent they are?
What's your thoughts on how some are abusing the salary cap, and getting away with it?
What's your thoughts on the salary cap being raised by £1.5 million in the next couple of years? The fact that they can go over the cap by as much as 5%? The fact that they can sign two marquee players outside the salary cap? The fact that the salary cap isn't legally binding, and clubs will spend what they like anyway? The fact that the rich will get richer, the poor poorer?

The grass is not so green on the other side.....

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:28 pm

Notch wrote:
PhilBB wrote:The point about Irish rugby is that the performance of the four teams is skewed by the IRFU. The IRFU has ensured success by spending more than others. Once these two fundamental points are accepted then we can move on.

And... so what? Is that meant to be a bad thing? This is what I don't get... why the bitterness, the angst over this? We have earned a certain amount of money which then allows us to spend more money. If the Welsh could do the same, I'd be happy. Were I a senior figure in the IRFU I would actually agree to limit our spending to a level where you caught up with us- if the Welsh were our main competitors on and off the pitch.

That's the flawed part of the analysis here I feel; the complaint is we Welsh can't compete with Irish spending! Well, we're too busy trying to compete with French spending to have time to worry about the Welsh. Test rugby and the European Cup make far more money for the IRFU than the Pro12, and staying competitive and selling tickets in those are the only way a nation the size of Ireland, Wales or Scotland can generate enough income to prevent being outbid for our best players by big French clubs. Of course we need to continue to grow the Pro12 as well, but like any business we can't neglect our biggest sources of income. What we need to ensure is that we stay competitive on and off the field so we can keep our best players in Ireland, so we can mould a successful test team. That is the ultimate aspiration and objective of rugby in Ireland.

I'm a massive fan of salary caps in theory because I believe a level playing field is best for sport as a business- the more even a competition, the more teams have a chance to genuinely compete, the more exciting it is and the better the product is. Unrestrained spending tends to result in a small number of teams becoming dominant and that is what we are seeing. However we don't have the power to generate a level playing field with salary caps as the French clubs, our main competitors in terms of wages off the pitch and on the pitch in the European Cup, are not amenable to any idea of a pan-European salary cap and want to outspend everyone else. So we are forced to pay more in wages to keep up with them.

In other words, I'm baffled why all the bitterness and angst and hatred is directed at the Irish, who are in the middle of the food chain, and not those at the top of the food chain who are distorting the market. If anything, the fact we have been able to retain more of our best players and survive as a business in the face of that kind of big money that exists in France should represent an aspiration for Welsh Rugby; if we can do it, it's not impossible for you to do it too, if your Union and your regions start working together rather than at cross-purposes.

So now we can move on. What do we move onto? It seems like this is just about being bitter about a system which has been more successful than your own. I cannot find any legitimate complaint on your part. I sympathise with the plight of Welsh rugby, but do not understand why the damaging effect of your own internal squabbles leads may Welsh fans to heap scorn upon the Irish. Surely we are more of an example to be followed than a boogeyman to be scapegoated for everything.

Its bits like that in bold that confuse me.

During the RCC/HEC debate, it was important that we ensured that everyone is included, and that we had to make sure nobody was left behind.  The general consensus was that the change to the RCC was going to lead to a huge mismatch in quality and cash.  And then when similar is questioned with regards the Pro12, and some nations being left behind, it is a case of 'Sorry we have to look after ourselves'.

If anything, the bit in bold reads pretty similar to what a number of Welsh fans were being slated for saying during that same debate.
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Post by asoreleftshoulder Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:34 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Its bits like that in bold that confuse me.

During the RCC/HEC debate, it was important that we ensured that everyone is included, and that we had to make sure nobody was left behind.  The general consensus was that the change to the RCC was going to lead to a huge mismatch in quality and cash.  And then when similar is questioned with regards the Pro12, and some nations being left behind, it is a case of 'Sorry we have to look after ourselves'.

If anything, the bit in bold reads pretty similar to what a number of Welsh fans were being slated for saying during that same debate.

Not even remotely similar,in the HC debate they were reducing the number of teams the Pro12 countries could enter and reducing the money we all received.It was done to drag the successful Pro 12 down instead of raising the French and English teams up.

In this debate we are saying the exact same thing,don't try to compete by dragging us down,try to compete by raising yourselves up.


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Post by Guest Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:40 pm

The RCC will make it more difficult, for all Pro12 sides, in the future. Ironically, the more successful it is, the more difficult it will be for Pro12 sides to keep up.
We are being forced to compete with the French right now. We have to compete on players wage levels, otherwise we lose our players. We want all Pro12 sides to be competitive. We want them to compete with us, to raise their game. That will benefit us. There is absolutely no sense in us lowering ours, or we all lose out.

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Post by wayne Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:38 pm

PhilBB wrote:
wayne wrote:
Wrong, to say they didn't receive anything out of signing the RSA is as you say disingenuous, they received an ex gratia payment of IIRC of £500,000, would they have received that if they hadn't signed the RSA, the answer is no, and the Regions also gained by NOT having to pay the 60% wages of the DC PLAYERS

The signing on fee? I guess you could classify that as more money, in all fairness, yes.

As for the 60%, that's an interesting argument. Did any of the four cut their wage bill by the 60% of the NDC they enjoy or did they maintain (or even increase) their wage bill beyond the 60%? I think therein lies the answer.

Certainly with Warburton, it wasn't 60% saved. As for the others that started in March, it will be interesting to see how those ones play out.

And now with Roger gone, and his original draft being ripped up after he was given his notice, it will be interesting to see if there is another tranche of these contracts on offer.
Just for another twist to the 60% DC offers, there is another Osprey that has just signed one of these, I have this on excellent authority, so that is yet more money available to us.

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:57 pm

Notch wrote:

And... so what? Is that meant to be a bad thing? This is what I don't get... why the bitterness, the angst over this? We have earned a certain amount of money which then allows us to spend more money.

Odd adjectives to use.

The key issue here is that many Irish rugby supporters don't appreciate how their success was won and, in the same breath, moan at the English and French for having greater spending power.

It's shamelessly hypocritical.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:58 pm

Notch wrote:
That's the flawed part of the analysis here I feel; the complaint is we Welsh can't compete with Irish spending!

That's a fabricated complaint. In other words, you've just made it up.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:00 pm

Notch wrote:
In other words, I'm baffled why all the bitterness and angst and hatred is directed at the Irish, who are in the middle of the food chain, and not those at the top of the food chain who are distorting the market.

There's some more odd adjectives.

There's no bitterness or angst or hatred. There may be a frustration at the complete lack of self awareness of the average Irish rugby follower, however.

A good source of that is your final two clauses above. When the Irish were able to spend more, I didn't see an Irishman moaning that they were the ones distorting the market.

Hopefully that little explanation will help you see things more clearly.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:02 pm

Notch wrote:
So now we can move on. What do we move onto? It seems like this is just about being bitter about a system which has been more successful than your own. I cannot find any legitimate complaint on your part. I sympathise with the plight of Welsh rugby, but do not understand why the damaging effect of your own internal squabbles leads may Welsh fans to heap scorn upon the Irish. Surely we are more of an example to be followed than a boogeyman to be scapegoated for everything.

The system of Irish rugby skews the PrO'12. That is undeniable. The PrO'12 can never be a genuine league whilst there are four teams with one owner. So we cannot 'move onto' anything whilst that remains in place, and remain in place it will.

The 'scorn' is because of the lack of self awareness, the pious nature and the stunning hypocrisy with how Irish rugby followers see the other systems in Europe. THAT is the source of the scorn, not the system in place in Ireland. Trying to get the average Irish rugby follower to even understand the system in place in Ireland is as difficult as this and many other threads have shown.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:06 pm

Munchkin wrote:
It was you that entered the WRU and IRFU transparency into the debate, not me, and I pointed out that they are both as transparent as each other.
It was me that asked you to highlight the gap in transparency between the Regions and the Provinces. Rather than answer the question you reply with more obfuscation.
If you know the wages the players are getting, then post those figures here. You are the one that has claimed to know the wages of the Provinces. Are you backing down from that claim now?
You have made two claims. One on the IRFU and WRU. You were wrong. The other, between the Regions and the Provinces, you claim to know how much is spent on salaries. My question to you was how much is spent on player wages. So post a breakdown of those wages here, and post solid evidence that the Provinces are less transparent than the Regions. You won't because you can't.

You have been caught out, and you know it. If you want to deny this, then post the evidence to back up your claim. Not the usual waffle, as above, in your attempt at avoiding the questions.

I responded on the difference between PRW and the Irish provinces with a simple question on wages. That was a question aimed at being descriptive enough for you to realise the differences in transparency for yourself.

I've never claimed to know the 'wages of the Provinces'. I told you that just a few posts ago, yet you've lied on that claim for the second time. Why do you do that?

I made no claim on the IRFU and the WRU.

I know how much PRW teams spend on salaries as it is in their annual audited accounts lodged at Companies House. The Irish have no such similar system. There's the obvious difference that I hoped my question would have allowed you to realise for yourself.

Please, champ, stop telling lies and creating straw men arguments. You know full well that you cannot point me towards how much Leinster Rugby spent on salaries whereas you can find that figure for the Scarlets. That's the key difference. We all know it, regardless of how many lies you tell or false arguments you try to create.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:08 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:Can someone please answer this to show that the WRU and IRFU are equal in their transparancy. Thanks.

how much does the IRFU pay for player wages and how much does the WRU pay for player wages.

lets not forget:


Munchkin wrote: your claim that WRU is more transparent than IRFU is hilarious and ironic

That's the question that Phil is yet to answer! Ask him.

There is no difference. A simple look at both the sites will confirm this.

If there is no difference then you'll be able to do this:

Point me to the page in the IRFU annual report where it mentions total spent on player wages and then point me to the page in the WRU annual report that mentions total spent on player wages.

Go on, champ. See if you can do it.

If you can do it then there is 'no difference', as you claim.

Go.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:10 pm

Munchkin wrote:Hey Chunky/Phil, what's your thoughts on the AP salary cap fiasco? All good with you?
What's your thoughts on how transparent they are?
What's your thoughts on how some are abusing the salary cap, and getting away with it?
What's your thoughts on the salary cap being raised by £1.5 million in the next couple of years? The fact that they can go over the cap by as much as 5%? The fact that they can sign two marquee players outside the salary cap? The fact that the salary cap isn't legally binding, and clubs will spend what they like anyway? The fact that the rich will get richer, the poor poorer?

The grass is not so green on the other side.....

My thoughts are that PRL couldn't legally make stick their own rules so couldn't legally prove a salary cap breach. I'm fine with that as I think that the caps are a waste of time because...... ba ba baaaa ...... they are unenforceable. I'm all behind Mourad taking his case to the EU. I wrote this above.

There's no fact that the richer get richer, the poor poorer. Now there is an incentive for the poor to get richer.
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Post by SecretFly Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:10 pm

PhilBB wrote:

The key issue here is that many Irish rugby supporters don't appreciate how their success was won and, in the same breath, moan at the English and French for having greater spending power.

It's shamelessly hypocritical.

Success was won by playing rugby that won... on the field. Scoring more tries or scoring more points and collecting the cups that went with it and the sponsors that liked being linked to it. That irks you obviously, so the soothing veneer replaces truth to make the moaners feel better about their place in the world.

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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:11 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Its bits like that in bold that confuse me.

During the RCC/HEC debate, it was important that we ensured that everyone is included, and that we had to make sure nobody was left behind.  The general consensus was that the change to the RCC was going to lead to a huge mismatch in quality and cash.  And then when similar is questioned with regards the Pro12, and some nations being left behind, it is a case of 'Sorry we have to look after ourselves'.

If anything, the bit in bold reads pretty similar to what a number of Welsh fans were being slated for saying during that same debate.

Yep, top point. It aligns with the Irish rugby follower moaning that the French can outspend them but never moaning when they won the HEC by spending more than their competitors.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:12 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Not even remotely similar,in the HC debate they were reducing the number of teams the Pro12 countries could enter and reducing the money we all received.It was done to drag the successful Pro 12 down instead of raising the French and English teams up.

In this debate we are saying the exact same thing,don't try to compete by dragging us down,try to compete by raising yourselves up.


Fair play, that is some revisionism.

At no point was it claimed that the PrO'12 countries would receive reduced money. Total fabrication.
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Post by Notch Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:13 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Its bits like that in bold that confuse me.

During the RCC/HEC debate, it was important that we ensured that everyone is included, and that we had to make sure nobody was left behind.  The general consensus was that the change to the RCC was going to lead to a huge mismatch in quality and cash.  And then when similar is questioned with regards the Pro12, and some nations being left behind, it is a case of 'Sorry we have to look after ourselves'.

If anything, the bit in bold reads pretty similar to what a number of Welsh fans were being slated for saying during that same debate.

I don't in anyway want to see anyone get left behind. But it seems that everyone in the Pro12 has had equal opportunities, equal potential, and the reason the Irish can spend more is they have managed their off-field affairs a lot better. The refusal of the Welsh Union to subsidise the regions and the regions assertion of their independence has led to crises and disputes that have damaged the game in Wales while we've avoided that. Should we be penalised for this good management? Of course, we DO have to look after ourselves. That is the mandate of the IRFU; to look after rugby in Ireland. We form partnerships with other unions in terms of the Six Nations or the Lions or the Pro12 to help us do that, but the hope is that those partnerships are mutually beneficial.

I understand where you're coming from in that this big beast eats the little beast capitalist logic applied to sport just leads to a few big clubs or nations dominating and other great teams being squeezed out, but actually- unlike the reformed European competitions- Wales and Ireland are ensured equality of opportunity. From the European Cup and Pro12 to the Six Nations and the Lions Tour, we play in the same competitions, with the same number of teams, sharing similar amounts of revenue from TV deals and the like. It's the other sources of income where we have outstripped you- sharing the income generated by the national team with the provinces, selling tickets, selling merchandise. All leads to having more to invest in the running of the team, all leads to an enhanced chance of success.

I don't want to see mismatches form but the solution can't be to try and drag others down to your level. It has to be for Welsh Rugby to do better and rise up to ours.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:13 pm

Munchkin wrote:The RCC will make it more difficult, for all Pro12 sides, in the future. Ironically, the more successful it is, the more difficult it will be for Pro12 sides to keep up.
We are being forced to compete with the French right now. We have to compete on players wage levels, otherwise we lose our players. We want all Pro12 sides to be competitive. We want them to compete with us, to raise their game. That will benefit us. There is absolutely no sense in us lowering ours, or we all lose out.

This is totally untrue.

The RCC could become extremely successful but the IRFU will just divert more money from grassroots in Ireland and into its Provincial teams in order for them to compete.

Whilst other nations' teams will bear the fruits of their harvest, the IRFU teams will get a leg up regardless.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:14 pm

wayne wrote:
Just for another twist to the 60% DC offers, there is another Osprey that has just signed one of these, I have this on excellent authority, so that is yet more money available to us.

That's a shame.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:15 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Success was won by playing rugby that won... on the field.  Scoring more tries or scoring more points and collecting the cups that went with it and the sponsors that liked being linked to it.  That irks you obviously, so the soothing veneer replaces truth to make the moaners feel better about their place in the world.  

Success was won by paying those on the field.

Let's not be silly by claiming anything else.
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Post by PhilBB Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:16 pm

Notch wrote:
I don't in anyway want to see anyone get left behind. But it seems that everyone in the Pro12 has had equal opportunities, equal potential, and the reason the Irish can spend more is they have managed their off-field affairs a lot better. The refusal of the Welsh Union to subsidise the regions and the regions assertion of their independence has led to crises and disputes that have damaged the game in Wales while we've avoided that. Should we be penalised for this good management? Of course, we DO have to look after ourselves. That is the mandate of the IRFU; to look after rugby in Ireland. We form partnerships with other unions in terms of the Six Nations or the Lions or the Pro12 to help us do that, but the hope is that those partnerships are mutually beneficial.

I understand where you're coming from in that this big beast eats the little beast capitalist logic applied to sport just leads to a few big clubs or nations dominating and other great teams being squeezed out, but actually- unlike the reformed European competitions- Wales and Ireland are ensured equality of opportunity. From the European Cup and Pro12 to the Six Nations and the Lions Tour, we play in the same competitions, with the same number of teams, sharing similar amounts of revenue from TV deals and the like. It's the other sources of income where we have outstripped you- sharing the income generated by the national team with the provinces, selling tickets, selling merchandise. All leads to having more to invest in the running of the team, all leads to an enhanced chance of success.

I don't want to see mismatches form but the solution can't be to try and drag others down to your level. It has to be for Welsh Rugby to do better and rise up to ours.

Who is wanting anybody to be dragged down? Why are you continuing to write this false conclusion to your own straw man question?
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